P.O. Sox: Winter meetings with the White Sox
Josh, James and I are all flying to Dallas for the winter meetings today, and reflecting the bad blood and animosity surging among the Sox Machine staff, we’ll be on three different flights.
Last winter, Josh and I hung around the Gaylord Opryland in Nashville for a few days, and while we only came away with the Erick Fedde signing to cover, it was an enviable amount of activity compared to the rest of the league.
This time around, it’s not safe to touch the hot stove. Pitchers have been coming off the board at a steady clip, and now the position players not named Juan Soto are starting to join them, highlighted by Willy Adames setting a San Francisco record with a reported seven-year, $182 million deal, and Tyler O’Neil going to Baltimore for three years and $49.5 million.
Whether this foreshadows equally momentous White Sox developments remains to be seen, but we’ll tell you what we’re seeing and hearing around the Hilton this week. While we’re in transit, enjoy this P.O. Sox mailbag, and Patreon supporters should stay tuned for an open Winter Meetings mailbag for us to cover on our podcasts from Dallas.
Will Crochet be dealt at the winter meetings? If so, who do you think lands him?
— KEVIN P.
James: I don’t know, and I don’t know. This is the sort of insight you have to pay for, folks. There were a lot of active talks going on this past week–multiple three-team scenarios rising as possibilities and then stalling–so you could convince yourself it’s building toward a climax next week. At the same time, the Dylan Cease trade talks had similar points of tension in the winter before dragging out to the spring. Maybe you can’t still hear Rick Hahn’s voice saying “there’s no reward for getting things done during these three days” but I can. The existence of three-team talks make me feel like sizing up who is the perfect partner is folly. There is no perfect partner, and the White Sox seem to already be accounting for that.
Jim: Yeah, I was on the wrong end of the will-they-won’t-they wager the last time, so this time I’ll say he doesn’t get traded, with the hopes that it gives us something to do in Dallas. I’ll stick with Boston as the most logical landing spot because I lack creativity.
Author
Better question is whether Getz will get something that both approaches fair value and makes sense from a timeline and needs perspective (i.e., focus on position players with good bats over pitchers). I’m gonna say he either gets fair value or aligns to their needs, but not both, and more likely the needs one than fair value.
The problem is they don’t have a timeline. Not one they have committed to publicly and not one where the moves they make seem to make sense. The most we’ve heard is they are a long way away which means nothing
Maybe a timeline becomes more clear with crochet , benny and or Robert getting moved but this is the incompetent whitesox, don’t hold your breathe
Also, they appear to be totally punting AGAIN on any significant free agent acquisitions. The march to 100+ losses is basically a forgone conclusion.
Not only is there no plan, there’s no excuse given for what they are(not) doing. We are not even worthy of being lied to.
It’s not just punting on significant free agent signings, it’s punting on competent free agent signings. The betrayal to the fanbase is such that it can only be intentional.
The timeline, according to the SSA, is 4.7 years.
Were he a Geraldina, we’d be subject to an extra .9 years of stewardship, according to the estimate.
At least this time if (when) they have the league’s worst record, they can pick better than 10th.
You’re not wrong, but to be more specific, I’m talking about the Bohm and Casas rumors. Fine if those guys are going to a third team, but Bohm doesn’t fit with any realistic timeline and even being optimistic, we’d only have Casas for two competitive years if (big, big if) all goes well. So really, I want prospects or guys who’ve burned a max of one year of their rookie deal, with a strong preference for the former.
I think Getz knows that he has no room for failure with the Crochet deal. Thus, he takes his time and waits out nearly all the FA pitcher signings. I’ll predict late January for that deal.
As the price of free agent pitching keeps going up, Crochet becomes more valuable. It probably makes sense to wait. My own preference is to get back among the return at least one MLB-ready outfielder who might help a Sox team minus its best pitcher avoid losing 121 games again, but no matter what, you are correct that Getz has to get this one right. It’s make or break for him.
Does it? I’m not sure I agree with that. I think Crochet at the trading top end has a definite limit, if the price for pitching continues to rise either teams will drop out of the mark or they’ll start selling their own pitching so an Eric Fedde may end up getting for the Cards as much or more than holding on to Crochet for too long.
I agree, we have to have an OF prospect back at some level.
Yes, but his becoming more valuable might work against the Sox as teams pivot to mid-tier options. I’m also concerned that if Getz waits out pitcher FA signings, there will be fewer teams bidding against each other. I’m not sure the price goes up by waiting, especially since Crochet is unique in this market at that price point.
White sox employees are not under a ton of pressure to perform
The re-notbuild is in full swing.
Exactly! Sadly, we are not rebuilding nor building. Tanking is not planned. It’s just a consequence of an inescapable reality. The White Sox look like an organization in a weird stage of nothingness. Getz is only buying time to develop chips that allow him to buy more time.
Reminds me of how directionless the Bulls were for years, save that the Sox are record-setting bad while the Bulls were normal bad.
The Bulls “were” directionless?
Enough that it was one of the reasons I stopped following the NBA about 5 years ago.
Kafkaesque if I may
You’re very optimistic James. The White Sox have no hitting prospects of note. Free agents like Willy Adames are signing contracts that will never happen while Jerry is here, so to complement our new core of Baldwin, Ramos, Sosa, Montgomery, and Quero, Getz will continue signing Austin Slaters, and that’s not gonna cut it. Not even close. The lack of power bats in this team is mind boggling. We currently don’t have a single hitter in the minors we can confidently project to hit more than 20 homers on a consistent basis. Only Wolkow (if he pans out).
I think Jerry will never see another post season game with the White Sox as long as he own the team. I don’t see how the White Sox will be good again as long as Jerry owns this team, so I wouldn’t make a prediction. But if I forced to, While Jerry is here green lighting Austin Slater’s type of contracts, the White Sox will need a new core with players we don’t have yet. So contending won’t happen before 2030 unless Jerry does something he only has done once when he approved Albert Belle’s signing.
Back-to-back-to-back rebuilds is not a rebuild. It is the plan. It’s just hard to give the “cellar dwellers” a positive spin.
The sad thing is that I don’t even think it is a plan. Sometimes I think of the current White Sox as if they were a new expansion team.
Eternal have-nots until a new owner….
Expansion teams during the Jerry Reinsdorf “waive the carrot, waive the white flag” era:
1981-2024 White Sox (44 years)
1 World Series (Win)
3 100 Loss Seasons
1993-2024 Miami (32 years)
2 World Series (2 Wins)
4 100 Loss Seasons
1998-2024 Tampa Bay (27 years)
2 World Series (2 Losses)
3 100 Loss Seasons
1998-2024 Arizona (27 years)
2 World Series (1 Win, 1 Loss)
2 100 Loss Seasons
1993-2024 Colorado (32 years)
1 World Series (Loss)
2 100 Loss Seasons
All but Colorado reached the World Series twice, an impossibility for the White Sox since they have only advanced in the playoffs once over Jerry’s 44 years.
Miami is the one team with four 100 loss seasons. The White Sox are actively working to get at least two more 100 loss seasons in the books through 2026.
I hope I did this correctly
Only teams with 100+ losses seasons in a row
(5) Philadelphia 1938-1939-1940-1941-1942
(4) Washington Senators 1961-1962-1963-1964
(4) Boston Doves 1909-1910-1911-1912
(4) New York Mets 1962-1963-1964-1965
(3) Boston RedSox 1925-1926-1927
(3) Boston Doves 1922-1923-1924
(3) Houston Astros 2011-2012-2013
(3) Pittsburgh Pirates 1952-1953-1954
(3) St. Louis Browns 1910-1911-1912
(3) Toronto Bluejays 1977-1978-1979
Current streaks: White Sox, The A’s and the Marlins with 2 seasons
I think the White Sox have a real shot to that Philadelphia Phillies record of 5
Five corrections required for the above:
1 Oakland lost 93 in 2024, so not a current two season streak
2 Miami lost 78 games in 2023, so not a current two season streak
3 Colorado lost 103 games in 2023 and 101 games in 2024, so they are the second and final team with a current 100 loss streak.
Additional Teams with three season 100 loss streaks
4 Philadelphia Athletics [1919 104; 1920 106; 1921 100]
5 Kansas City Royals [2004 104; 2005 106; 2006 100]
Three of the twelve 100+ loss streak teams were expansion clubs (Senators II, Mets & Blue Jays).
Final thought – Branch Rickey presided over the Pirates three season 100 loss team after inheriting a poor team, before building the core which beat the Yankees in 1960.
It’s just a clogged toilet taking on more filth at this point.
The Orioles’s signing O’Neil seems odd given how loaded they are with OF’s. And this deal just freed up another one. It would seem the O’s are a great matchup for a Crochet trade. They need a starter to replaced Burnes and we need a bunch of position guys back, and the O’s are loaded.
It occurred to me when I read about that signing that they might be freeing up one of the younger guys to make a/the trade.
According to Buster Olney, the White Sox are intent on dealing Robert, and other teams are reading it “as a tell that Chicago wants to cash out on whatever diminished value Robert has now, rather than risk seeing his value crater even more through another subpar season.”
What Jerry is doing to this franchise is criminal. He will likely have a payroll under $50 million. I wouldn’t be surprised if he orders Getz to deal Benintendi by attaching a significant prospect piece to the deal. Man, I can’t wait until he’s gone. I have a hard time believing they’ll ever lose less than 100 games as long as he is owner.
Right now, with Crochet and Robert Jr., this is 110+ loss team.
If you compare it with prior year, we will start the season without Crochet and Fedde. We don’t have Pham. Our best pitcher is Cannon? I am not sure what to expect from Thorpe. We also have no relievers of note. No closers, but we might not need one if there are no leads to protect in the 9th.
There is just zero power. We won’t have De Jong. If Getz trades Robert Jr. the White Sox might set a new loss record. Vaugh and his sub 700 OPS will be our source of “power”. I really hope Sosa finally blossoms as a hitter. Venable is probably miles better than Grifol, but this team won’t be able to score runs as currently built.
That’s absolutely right. And they will continue to lose attendance. And JR will continue to cry poor and not spend. This could be the worst stretch of seasons in professional sports history, all thanks to Reinsdorf.
Here’s the positive- at the rate Jerry is tanking value of the club, the SoxMachine community might have a chance of crowdsourcing a purchase of the team in the next few years!
Yeah – this team will be worse than last year’s team. No Fedde, Crochet, Robert, DeJong. Setting the record for losses two years in row. And with the lottery they are not assured the top pick.
It feels like JR wants to punish the fans.
They are literally going to field a AAA team at the major league level. Honestly, given what the ownership is doing, I’d be OK with MLB disbanding the franchise. Or with JR moving the team to a different city (just drop the White Sox name). Just make it stop.
Hell, even if they did get the top pick, Jerry might cry poor and go under slot.
Many (most?) fans already have or are checking out
Relax. The Sox are in talks with Connor Joe.
It’s just a seat at the table, he’ll sign for more elsewhere.
Who?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/joeco01.shtml
It’s only a crime is somebody poor does it.
This doesn’t make any sense. What the hell is the difference between a small return now and no return later if he craters? Best to roll the dice on a comeback for a larger return later. Unless they see something in the medicals, which I would think they’d be obliged to be transparent about.
*fewer
H/t: gibby
The only way to begin to describe and understand this era of the White Sox franchise is via a made up acronym:
“NARBO”
Not
A
Real
Baseball
Organization
Once you know NARBO, the late stage Reinsdorf Sox start to make sense.
It’s not just that JR is cheap. He’s never been a big spender, but the organization has never been the hopeless laughingstock that it is today. The game has just passed him by. He wants to lead cavalry charges against tanks.
But he’s only paying for hobby horses now.
Split coconuts for this quest.
As someone else pointed out, time has passed Reinsdorf by. One board member is 75, everyone else in their 80’s or 90’s. Pizer is 83. TLR is 80. Winning Ugly was 41 years ago. Frank Thomas retired 15 years ago. The franchise has been run on old business templates for a number of decades now. 2005 was a one-off. No repeatable successes or sustainable processes. None of JR’s kids seem interested in the franchise or in implementing new ways of doing things. So we fans are left with the gerontocracy that won’t cede power or update its views of the sport. The “smartest guys in the room” circa 1990 aren’t going to cut it.
I really wanted Hope in the trade, but now there is no way he could be the PTBNL Any position player from 15 – 25 would be awesome.
We all want hope as Sox fans, but… JR…
“Boston may be a different story, as Cotillo hears that the Red Sox are “just on the periphery of Garrett Crochet talks and are not aggressors at all.” This tracks with reporting from Cotillo’s MassLive colleague Sean McAdam a couple of weeks ago, as McAdam wrote that negotiations between the two Sox teams had seemingly quieted. ”
Update- Morosi says deal possible this week. Mayer from the Red Sox could now be available.
I kinda doubt it. If Mayer was truly available, wouldn’t Crochet be a Red Sox now?
https://twitter.com/BOSSportsGordo/status/1865927807517544579
Dick Allen got elected to the Hall of Fame. Shame he didn’t live to see it, but really happy for his family. This honor was long overdue.
Love that Dick Allen finally got in, though it took too far long. Same as Marvin Miller, also inducted this decade after too long of a wait.
Too bad John Donaldson couldn’t make it this time. There should be a special Negro Leagues Committee established soon to consider his candidacy and others who may have been overlooked on previous ballots.
Wow! 15/765 (51 a year)
Good for him
In the meantime, Jerry still believes he can find solid players in the free agency for less than 10 M AAV. Major League salaries are taking a leap in recent years. The pre-arb salaries are becoming incredibly outdated. Almost comical.