White Sox 3, Guardians 0: Leftovers are delicious
I’m in the Rocky Mountains this weekend, which isn’t the most convenient place to watch an Apple TV+ broadcast. Here’s the bullet-point recap:
*The White Sox traded five pitchers over the last two days, and still haven’t replaced all of them on the 26-man roster, so of course three Sox remainders combined to throw a six-hit shutout to snap a six-game losing streak.
*Touki Toussaint led the way with five strong innings for his first win in a White Sox uniform. He’s had similarly effective outings, but this one featured no real control lapses, as he issued just one walk and threw a respectable 52 of 83 pitches for strikes.
*Toussaint walked the first batter of the game, then watched Andres Gimenez’s blistered grounder break Gavin Sheets’ glove for a hard-luck error. José Ramírez lined out to second, but Josh Naylor smoked a line drive single to right that loaded the bases. Toussaint managed to escape by getting Josh Bell to ground into a double play.
*After the first-inning scare, Toussaint retired eight in a row, and he never faced a similar threat again.
*Tanner Banks built on Toussaint’s outing with three innings in relief, setting up presumed new closer Gregory Santos for his second save, which he recorded after bringing the tying run to the plate.
*Luis Robert Jr.’s first-inning solo shot would’ve been enough, but Jake Burger tacked on his own with a 450-foot blast into the second level of center-field shrubbery for his 25th homer, and his fourth in three days.
*The Sox eventually sequenced their way into a run for insurance in the eighth. Eloy Jiménez singled, Burger walked, and after Gavin Sheets grounded into a fielder’s choice, Oscar Colás stayed on a low-and-away pitch and swatted it to left field for an RBI single.
*Colás committed another error when he failed to cleanly field an opposite-field single hit right at him, which Oscar Gonzalez stretched into two bases. Toussaint pitched around it.
Record: 42-63 | Box score | Statcast
Author
All the deadline moves are already paying dividends. Hahn playing some 3D chess here.
Waiver wire pickup superior to recently traded anchor of the rotation. Hmmmm….
Who?
Lynn?
I wonder if there are any cases of a team trading 5 pitchers off the roster in 2 mid-season days and not getting a single major league pitcher back.
And does the trade of Graveman signal that they’re not going for it next year (in which case trade Cease) or are they going to start investing the bloated bullpen payroll elsewhere, signalling Hahn has tamed his bullpen fetish?
To your first point, one of the things that makes it so unusual is that the Sox didn’t come into July with pitching depth in the high minors.
To your second point, I’ve been wondering that too. In the end, the FO can use whatever term they want to to describe what they are doing, but if they think the guys who haven’t helped the team win much since the first half of 2021 are going to be the core of a winning team next year then they are even stupider than we thought. If the plan is “build a 2024 playoff team out of 2019 Moncada, 2019-2020 Eloy, May-July 2023 Luis Robert, 2022 Cease, etc.” then it isn’t a very good plan.
With nothing changing in the FO, this new rebuild is already doomed. At the start of the last rebuild, you could envision a rotation with Kopech, Giolito and Cease, supplemented by some acquisitions (Lynn, Keuchel). On offense, TA, Moncada, Robert, Abreu, Eloy formed a very nice core, which needed to be aided by someone like Harper and/or Semien. When they failed to add, the rebuild failed.
What does the future look like with this rebuild? Cease, Kopech and Touki at the top of the rotation? Then when Cease leaves after 25, maybe Noah Schultz, Nastrini, Payton Pallette? And offense? Robert, Eloy, Colas, Vaughn, Montgomery, Gonzalez, Quero? Without some big-time additions, this rebuild is doomed. Will JR spend, and Hahn make the right moves? I think we all know the answer to that.
Yeah, they would have to spend significantly just on the rotation to even feign being competitive in 2024 or 2025, for that matter. I’d be fine with Touki competing to be the fifth starter, but if you’re relying on him to be your second or third best guy, you’re not serious about winning or even having an intriguing rebuild. We still have no idea if Kopech is a legitimate big league starter, so you’d really need a solid sixth option to slide into that spot. After that, the Sox have barely cobbled together innings at AAA this year, often relying on multiple bullpen games a week.
There are plenty of mid-tier rotation options that would fit into Jerry’s budget this off-season. Syndergaard, Alex Wood, Lorenzen, Kyle Gibson. All are 4-5 starters, but they will give you some innings.
Lorenzen will probably be too rich for Jerry’s blood. Syndergaard can’t stay healthy and would be an odd choice if you’re looking for someone to eat innings. Regardless, adding any of those names to the crap we have on hand doesn’t meaningfully alter the outlook.
I agree with what you say. I just think that that’s what Jerry will do- replace Gio and Lynn with two of those guys, and then say we’re ready to compete. When you are cheap and utterly incompetent, you become delusional pretty quickly.
I just don’t see them pursuing a frenzy of activity this winter after bottom 5 attendance, 100 losses, and and a team in shambles. If they inexplicably signed 2 pitchers out of that rather motley group, that still leaves them worse year over year than Gio/Clevinger. Whatever they wind up doing is in the ‘who cares’ category, even if they “try”. They are back at 2017-2019 levels. There are only two or 3 teams sure to be worse. But hopefully they are not done dealing, and get some more prospects. That’s all there is left to hope for.
I believe Kopech is destined for the BP.
I’m not sure. Maybe he should be, but they are bereft of rotation options in the majors and high minors.
Steve, I wonder what the Sox intend to do in order to staff pitching to get through 2023. Do they expect to get some innings from Clevinger, Hendriks, Crochet and Lambert? Seems like the top pitchers they have in the minors are the new guys they just received in the trades.
Well, they need 13 pitchers. The starters will probably be Cease, Kopech, Touki, Scholtens, then Clevinger if healthy. I don’t know who else- Sammy Peralta, Lambert? As for the relievers, Bummer, Santos, Shaw, Banks, Cronin, Middleton (though he will likely be traded) are on the roster. Crochet, Colome? Pretty slim pickings.
Your list of starters looks pretty accurate. They can grab some DFAs if they need to supplement the pen. It makes no difference this year.
I think it’s about 2 and 1/2 days premature to say. I could easily be wrong, but I think one or two more deals (or more) are coming and potentially not minor ones. Tim to Miami, hopefully for Jacob Amaya. I hope they are checking on Kopech to Cincinnati for India. I doubt that Hahn will try to interest Seattle in Vaughn in exchange for one of their young starters, but he should. The more they rip this thing up the better. I’m fine with Cease to Baltimore for a package.
I agree Gibby. I think there are a couple of more deals to be made. We can begin the 2024 speculation in earnest after Tuesday.
I’d guess that zero of those things happen. All the reporting says you’d have to overwhelm Cincinnati for India, I don’t think anything is close with Tim, and Vaughn is inexplicably on their list of untouchables.
I’d bet that if we see any additional trades, they’ll involve Middleton or Bummer.
Since I have no inside information, of course it is unlikely that any of those specific things will happen. The broader point is that this roster is toxic and needs a major overhaul. I don’t dislike many of the current Sox players, but they are awful together. Allow me some hyperbole: the more deals, the better.
Yeah let’s have Hahn trade Cease…What could go wrong
The reality is, just like Gio and guys who will or would have been gone soon, Cease will be gone after 2025. And there is no bleeping way that they are going to win anything with this dumpster roster between now and then.
So between the choices of trading Cease, or keeping him and getting nothing, I’ll go with trading him. Obviously we would all want for a different GM to do the trade, but God knows if there is any chance of that. The Sox never would have had Giolito, Cease, or Eloy if Hahn didn’t make trades, so as much of a doofus as he is, there is a reasonable chance he gets at least something of real value for Cease. There is zero if they stubbornly keep him as if there is any point to their next 2 seasons. There are no good choices and probably no good outcomes as long as Jerry owns the team, bottom line.
You are willing to select from the
crappy menu options you believe Jerry gives you, I’m not interested in that approach. I think about what I think a good organization will do in this scenario and offer that up as the approach this organization should be taking. I’m not going to operate in the guardrails set out by a boob by Jerry. My vision wound be having a new GM come in and assess whether Cease should be traded.
And when Jerry evidently doesn’t listen and does something stupid like letting Hahn tackle another rebuild. I’ll laugh and point out what a fool he is.
The reality is Jerry isn’t going to sign off on a Cease trade anyways because at 87 isn’t likely going to do a tear it all down rebuild.
I’m not willing to select from anything. I haven’t been to a game in almost 9 years, nor paid for a cable subscription most of that time. I won’t give this org a dime. I’m only stating that given it is obvious that they aren’t going to win anything while Cease is in a Sox uniform, it makes sense to trade him rather than get nothing, or get much less if they wait to trade him.
Anyway it’s hardly worth chatting about this disaster of a team any longer, really. I did not follow them from 2017 to 2019, which is where they are at now. I’m just curious what they might do with trades. It will take years to show whether anything they do bears any fruit, and they might not have another winning season this decade given who owns them and the clowns in their front office that he keeps. This team is really a complete waste of everybody’s time and energy. I’m about done with them, for a while at least.
The sad thing is that we are all here arguing about this disgraceful organization. Why? Because we are passionate about the Chicago White Sox baseball team, that’s why. And Jerry couldn’t care less. He doesn’t deserve us. He’s pathetic. All we can hope for is that sometime soon we’ll have a new owner and things will be better. Until then, we’ll argue about what is the best way forward.
You are right, Jerry does not deserve a fan base. It’s mind boggling to me that 20K people per game have bought tickets to see them. I mean, their team is completely devoid of any entertainment value whatsoever, and should draw a few hundred people per game, if even that many.
I think as a fanbase we need to focus on putting as much pressure on Jerry as possible to fire Hahn.
I do think they cut Leury partially because we made him a symbol of LaRussa’s failures.
He traded Sale for Moncada and Kopech, which at the time, was a good return. I very much want Hahn gone, but the only shining star he has on an otherwise dismal tenure is his ability to get decent returns. If you can find someone to give you a decent return for 2022 Cease, get it done because I haven’t seen any indication that he’s going to return to that form. I could be wrong, Gio came back nicely, but still, only fools bet against the trend.
I’d counter that with: what GM wouldn’t have a gotten good return for prime Chris Sale? It’s not all that impressive to me that he was able to sell assets with which he should have been able to build a good team.
Trading Sale, Q and Eaton on team friendly contracts was certain to land prime prospects. The fact that they couldn’t succeed with those 3 on team friendly contracts while in their prime (plus Abreu and TA) speaks volumes to how bad a GM Hahn is.
That isn’t how trades are graded. Trades are graded on the output they give to your team. The Sale trade did not work. People tend to overrate what Hahn did to kick off this rebuild
There’s no doubt in my mind that the Sox will come back with the same lineup next year.
Hahn will sign a Clevinger-like replacement and a couple of veteran relievers. Then, they will feel like they can be competitive in the ALCentral.
I dearly hope it means the latter. If they hang on to Bummer and Hendriks is still gonna be around, they still have the bones of a respectable bullpen with those two, Santos, and Crochet. I’d really like for them to shift thru a buncha talented dudes who haven’t clicked again to fill out the rest of the pen.
If Touki can effectively hold down a spot in the rotation it makes 2024 roster construction a whole lot easier.
When the new-look Sox catch Detroit, Cleveland, and Minnesota, is Touki the game 1 starter?
I think Touki starts game 1 and game 2 of the playoff series.
Cease, Kopech, Touissant, Nastrini, and Scholtens – just hand us the division title now
We can only hope:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/brewers-marlins-interested-in-eloy-jimenez.html
I’m all for trading Eloy if they can get something of value, maybe package him with Tim to Miami. He’s just a round peg in a square hole, will never have a position. The question I have is what are they going to do with Burger? As much as he isn’t the defender Moncada is, Burger is way, way better at 3b b/c he actually hits. But certainly for a team with league worst defense, having Burger anywhere doesn’t help that. I’m all for dealing Eloy and having Burger be permanent DH. Burger seems like a better bet to stay healthy than Eloy, and is just as productive. Eloy hasn’t hit 25 homers in a season since 2019.
I doubt anything happens with Eloy, but nice to see the suggestion and that there might be a small chance, anyway.
I am not at all for making a guy who strikes out 32% of the time a permanent lineup fixture. Eloy is a more complete hitter and doesn’t have the same strikeouts out a lot, only hits at home profile.
If you’re going to clear out some of the glut of DHs, I’d much rather dump Sheets, Vaughn, and Burger than Eloy.
I agree with Matt. Eloy as a permanent DH is much more dangerous than Burger. He may not hit as many HRs, but he is certainly a much better hitter all around. And keeping him out of the field will likely keep him much healthier. He should never play the outfield again.
He’s only played 14 games in the OF this year and has still been out a ton of the time. I’m not arguing that they are close to equal in terms of talent, but Eloy just isn’t worth much spending as much time on the DL as he always does. And 3 years isn’t bad luck, it’s a pattern. He gets hurt brushing his teeth. Burger has almost as many homers this year as Eloy the past 2 seasons.
There are lots of players with less ability than Eloy who are more valuable b/c they don’t get hurt all the time. I don’t know what a guy who can’t play the field and averages 15 homers a year due to DL time is worth, but it’s not a lot.
Not worth a lot indeed. In the last 4 years, Eloy’s max homers is 16. Even Vaughn has hit more than Eloy. VAUGHN!! I won’t miss Eloy if traded.
Eloy hasn’t played enough to prove any real worth in 3 years, and has never had a WAR over 2. Burger’s WAR this year may eclipse Eloy’s career high. I mean if he was healthy, obviously Eloy is better than Burger. But he hasn’t hit 40 homers over 3 seasons since 2020. What do you do with a guy who is a good bet to miss half a season every year, and can’t play the field? Eloy isn’t a permanent anything. His health cuts his value in half, and clearly he hasn’t added much to this team since 2020. Burger isn’t great, but I’ll take a healthy Burger and 30+ homers over Eloy missing 1/3 to 1/2 a season and not playing enough to hit even 20. Eloy has to stay healthy to have real value, and he basically can’t.
I’d rather gamble on Eloy’s health and potential. It’s not like Burger is all that proven – he’s had the home run power this season, but is it sustainable? I say not, given that guys who strike out as much as he does have a definite ceiling.
If you trading Eloy to free up ABs for someone who was clearly better or provided a different kind of useful profile with a high OBP, I could see it. For Burger? Hard pass.
I’ll take any healthy player who hits 30 homers over 60 percent of a season of Eloy. He has yet to play 125 games in a season, and won’t this year, in his 4th 162 game season. He’s only played 100 games once, back in 2019. I think the time to hold out for Eloy fulfilling some better potential has passed.
I wouldn’t give him away, but if they got decent value in return, adios. A guy who has never had a 2 WAR season in this his 5th year is hardly much of a loss. We’ll agree to disagree, but I’d much rather hold on to Burger, who they will be paying a shitload less than Eloy the next 2 years. He’s certainly the much better value from that standpoint.
I really am not at all moved by the salary argument, especially given how much payroll they have coming off the books for next year.
You saying Burger is healthy? Yeah, he is this year, But he’s had just as many health problems as Eloy. He missed 2 full years with Achilles troubles. This is his first healthy year. Sorry, I’ll take Eloy over Burger.
I’ll take:
Eloy and Burger and no Vaughn
Vaughn and Burger and no Eloy
What I won’t take is
Eloy and Vaughn and Burger
Eloy and Vaughn and no Burger
This is Robert’s first healthy season playing over 100 games as well. Burger’s achilles issues are several years behind him. Neither may be a great bet for perfect future health, but both have been fine this year, which is more than anybody can say for Eloy every year. I like Burger’s chances of good health in the future much better than Eloy. I’d say the same for just about anybody aside from Moncada or Buxton.
Burger will likely hit 30+ bombs. That plays even if he strikes out 30% of the time. I have a feeling his eyes-to-bat ball hasn’t peaked yet. With more experience, he can do fine. I think there’s untapped potential with Burger whereas Eloy is what he is (unreliable), and Vaughn is underwhelming
Eloy hit 31 his first year. With a much higher average. Who’s to say that Burger won’t have more injury problems going forward. I think if you take Eloy’s glove away from him and tell him he is the DH going forward, he will remain healthier.
Burger, like any player, could have injury problems. Eloy will have injury problems. Big difference.
Yeah, I don’t get why people don’t want to give Burger any props, or hopes for improvement. He’s by far their biggest positive surprise (other than Robert being fully healthy for the first time), and he’s been clearly better and more valuable than Eloy, Vaughn, and several others. Again Eloy is more talented, but that’s worth very little with his consistent and unrelenting time on the DL.
One thing people fail to notice with Burger is that Burger hits significantly less grounders than Eloy, and Burger hits the ball harder than Eloy. Burger’s power does not appear fluky.
Per Baseball Savant: https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jake-burger-669394?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb
Eloy’s in parenthesis
Avg EV: 94% (84%)
Max EV: 100% (88%)
xwOBA: 84% (54%…yikes)
xBA: 55% (69%)
xSLG: 94% (72%)
Barrels: 98% (71%)
By showing this picture, it looks like Burger is a better hitter. If you look at Vaughn, you’ll cry, so I left him out of this comparisons.
That data proves that Burger hits the ball harder, and that’s about it. His approach still sucks.
People talk about Burger like he’s some young unknown – dude is 27. He’s not suddenly going to become patient.
Burger goes up there and swings as hard as he can at basically everything. No one doubts the power. The problem is that these extreme power over hit approaches are risky, and prone to feast or famine production, especially without a high walk rate to fall back on.
He’s a useful player. But there’s not much room between his performance now and his ceiling imo. Eloy has flaws, but if you’re looking to the future, rolling the dice that you can coax the 144 wRC+ like last year out of him— when he’s healthy— makes a lot of sense. The 75% DHing is keeping him reasonably healthy too, almost all the games he’s missed have been from the appendicitis, which is a) not at all baseball related and b) can’t be repeated.
I think they can coexist perfectly fine. Burger gets some time at 3B, 1B, and DH. If you split DH duties between Eloy-when-healthy and Burger, you could reasonably expect a 130 wRC+ from DH, which would be 2nd in MLB (after the Angels ofc).
The real issue is Vaughn imo.
But you’re missing the point. I like Burger, but this is his first healthy year since he’s been with the Sox organization. And you guys talk like he’s an iron man. Last year he played 90 total games, the year before 97. And he played none in 2018-2020 (yes 2020 was the Covid year). This is his first completely healthy year in the last 7.
But it is happening now whereas with Eloy, his only healthy season happened 4 years ago, and yet, Eloy wasn’t available for the playoff because, surprise surprise, his lower body broke down. I once saw photo of Eloy wearing cargo shorts, and a t-shirt. His upper body was buffed, but his legs caught my attention. They were skinny when compared to that massive upper body. I don’t think Eloy likes to condition his lower body.
I give him props for hitting home runs, but he contributes nothing else. Saying he’s better than Eloy is highly debatable – wRC+ disagrees.
I think Eloy is better, right now, than Burger, but not by much. I have no quiver with Eloy’s hit tool. I have a problem with his ability to stay healthy
Yes, trade him or try to trade Vaughn instead. Let’s not commence 2024 with both of them. Eloy is better than Vaughn (probably not even close).
This core group of ChiSox players isn’t good enough to win. Robert Jr. should not be the best offensive player. He strikes out too much and doesn’t get on base enough. He would be a good #2. This team really did need Harper or Machado.
He also plays excellent defense in CF and runs the bases well. Robert being the best position player is not an issue… he’s got the 6th-highest position player WAR in baseball right now.
Best pure hitter is a different thing, but the guy’s still 15th in baseball in wRC+ at 136.