Third base is probably right place for Yoan Moncada, unless…

Nicopanico / Wikipedia

If Jerry Reinsdorf indeed wanted to pursue Manny Machado without being forced to set the market by his lonesome, the San Diego Padres did him a solid.

Just like the White Sox, the Padres are said to have offered Machado an eight-year deal according to multiple reports. Unlike the White Sox, the size of the Padres’ offer seems to have a narrower and firmer range, and, if true, ups the ante:

The range could vary because of California’s steep state income tax, which might require signing bonuses or deferred money to recoup equal value to the same face value signed in other states. Or it just may be because nobody knows what anything means anymore.

I’m not even sure “offer” has a strict definition at this point, but San Diego’s should inspire some kind of reaction from competing clubs, including ones that are reportedly waiting for an offer to top. At least it would’ve way back in the long, long ago … meaning 2014.

At any rate, the uniformed White Sox personnel didn’t show the kind of sensitivity the off-field news demanded, because Rick Renteria opened the first official day of full spring training by playing Yoan Moncada at third and Yolmer Sanchez at second.

That’s a sensible course to pursue in a world where Machado isn’t there, and an unnecessary flexibility ploy if he is. Coming on the heels of the San Diego offer?

https://twitter.com/RobHartWBBM/status/1097624318253694976

It also didn’t help that Rick Renteria’s explanation relied more on intangibles/unproveables:

“I think that playing third might allow him to free himself up, simply because he’s going to have to be more focused,” manager Rick Renteria said. “At second base, you can get a little bit more lackadaisical. I think that it’s possible, and there’s no guarantee, that playing third base rounds out his focus a little bit more on both sides of the ball. At least that’s an expectation or a hope we might have.”

If there’s a focus-adjacent case to be made, I think there are more varieties of mechanics to stay on top of as a second baseman than a third baseman. Moncada’s errors didn’t stem from a lack of range, but what came after getting into a fielding position. It all kinda went haywire for Moncada last year. Rushing motions and hard hands are the simple ones to diagnose, but things like quick pivots for things besides double plays, stopping momentum after ranging, preserving throwing angles, etc. are harder to solve. Experience solves some of it, as Tim Anderson proves, but Anderson mostly had to deal with wrestling the speed of the game down to his level. Fluidity is harder to learn.

Third base has its own challenges, but you’re mostly going left and throwing left, making it more about first-step quickness and hands. Second base requires more in the way of artistry, and Sanchez brings creativity to his problem-solving there. (Then again, Micah Johnson was an actual, literal artist, so never mind.)

So I can buy Moncada as a third baseman, and if the Sox don’t land Machado, grooming Moncada is a more proactive stance than putting all the eggs in the basket of another failed free agent pursuit next season. In the rosiest of outcomes, he’d stabilize at third while offering the promise of improvement at second, making further infield flexibility possible (or marketable in terms of a trade).

I’d prefer that to the other line of reasoning floated from spring training, presented by NBC Sports Chicago’s Vinnie Duber:

Moncada’s move to third base has little, if anything, to do with Machado and a lot more to do with Nick Madrigal, last year’s first-round pick who is what the White Sox call a Gold Glove caliber defender up the middle, specifically at second base, where he’s played since he joined the organization. Madrigal, who the White Sox described as the best all-around player in college baseball when they drafted him, could move through the system quickly, and when he arrives at the major league level, they want to have a spot for him.

Madrigal posted a .701 OPS at Winston-Salem last year, so presenting him as a driver of major-league decisions doesn’t do anybody a whole lot of good. A broken hand is as good a reason as any why Madrigal had to settle for opposite-field singles last year, but people just might want to see him turn around low-minors pitching with a wood bat for the first time before penciling him in to any major plans.

The White Sox might not want to even put Madrigal on the fastest track possible, and for reasons besides economic ones. For one, the Sox have spoken about wanting to see his ability at shortstop before cementing him at second (he was trumped by a superior option at Oregon State). Then there’s this story about Gordon Beckham, who might get one more chance with the Tigers, and might retire if it doesn’t pan out.

Beckham has no contingency plan beyond that. He spent more time in the minor leagues the last two seasons (177 games) than he did after he was drafted in the first round out of the University of Georgia in 2008 (88 games).

That’s not going to happen this year, one way or another.

“At this point in my career, if it doesn’t work out here, I might be done,” he said. “I’ve been up and down with the Mariners the last two years. It’s not something that is super appealing to me anymore. I want to compete at the highest level.

Not every fast-tracked prospect will turn out like Beckham, but it’s probably a good rule of thumb to wait for the prospect to demand a fast-tracking with his performance before entertaining it.

I wouldn’t like to believe that Madrigal is the source of MLB consequences at this stage in the game. If Renteria is indeed detached from the Machado pursuit, then he should be even less involved with player development at A-ball, because the former has far more to do with his task at hand.

So, if he’s playing Moncada at third to open the spring, it’s because he can only count on the players on his roster, and that alignment might give him a better shot at reliable defense around the diamond. If Machado arrives, well, as James Fegan wrote, “They can have a short moment of silence for the days of wasted infield practice at Machado’s introductory press conference.”

Moncada then can return to second, and if Madrigal somehow complicates the picture there, then Renteria will already have experience shifting the infield in the event of a best-case scenario.

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knoxfire30

Some odd stuff from the sox on moncada going to third. Ricky basically saying he doesnt pay attention at 2nd… weird, limiting one of his best assets “range” by moving from 2nd to 3rd, weird, most of his downfall at 2nd was having stone hands… not sure how that changes at 3rd, weird…. clearing the path for a 2018 first round pick likely 2 years out also, weird…

karkovice squad

Crede was able to derive a lot of value from covering ground when healthy. So it’s not like range doesn’t play at 3B.

It would also mean being able to shift Anderson more up the middle.

MadManx

Does anyone remember Tyler Saladino? Was it really that long ago?

karkovice squad

Saladino’s range was somewhat better than Sanchez’s but nowhere near peak Crede’s value.

mikeyb

Everybody knows that first day of spring training is playing your potential future franchise centerpiece out of position, and day two is followed by 4 hours of bunting practice.

Lurker Laura

I hate this offseason so much.

asinwreck

Micah Johnson is not a performing artist, which may be the issue. Fascinating guy, who I could see in broadcasting, teaching, curating, exhibiting, just not fielding.

Sophist

might have to change his name, though

GoGoSoxFan

Flipping position for Moncada and Sanchez improves the team’s defense, if for no other reason than a 2B will have about double the chances per season compared to a 3B. I could see Moncada moving to CF when Machado signs.

lil jimmy

but we have Engel in Center!

GoGoSoxFan

Who?

Marty34

Pay the premium on Harper not Machado. If you can only sign one.

shaggy65

Sanchez has the arm of a 2B and moncada the arm of a 3B. The swap just makes sense.

GreatjonHumber

I always thought Yolmer had plenty of arm for third. Decent carry and very accurate. He Milton Berles it a little on normal plays but on max effort throws he can air it out.

MrTopaz

I remember saying when the Sox first put Yolmer at third that he had a fringey arm for the position, but he’s proven me wrong quite handily. He’s not in the Matt Chapman tier, obviously, but he’s more than adequate at the position, defensively. It’s just that the bat profiles better at second.

35Shields

I’m always impressed by the FO’s ability to create new problems.

Got second baseman with great range and bad hands? Let’s move him to a position that doesn’t require range and does require good hands!

HouseOfTheRisingSox

My new thought is maybe that’s Renteria’s way of showing the front office how badly we need Machado. Palka will take some at 3rd today.

HouseOfTheRisingSox

Renteria’s quote is so strange that it made me wonder if it was possible he wasn’t even aware Moncada was over there yesterday, and then when asked had to come up with the reason on the spot so it would sound like he made the decision.

metasox

Or everyone just missed the foreshadowing

PauliePaulie

More terrible decisions by Sox coaching. Every one of these moves are solutions in search of problems. Moncada needs to learn how to hit. Madrigal needs to get past A ball. Yolmer is a Utility Inf. And the Sox need a TRUE 3B.
This staff continues to alarm.

GrabSomeBench

Nailed it

Sophist

I wonder if this was the intended plan B/sign Harper plan all along that they wish they could have either put in place or abandoned long ago. But now Spring training is here and it’s poop or get off the pot.

knoxfire30

Hey we didnt outbid ourselves atleast, fucking joke franchise

jorgefabregas

Right. Great strategy to wait it out and see how the market developed.

dansomeone

He chose the Padres?!?! Over the Sox?!?! Joke is right. Renisdorf.

dwjm3

But But Jerry told us he is all about fan …Everything he does he does for the fan…It is hard not to really be bearish about the future of this franchise

joewho112

So how long until Harper signs with Philly? 2 days?

NDSox12

Commence the clearance sale on Machado friends and relatives.

Anohito

What a sad sad joke…

Kristofer

I’m fine with not topping this offer. 10/320? 11/330? No thanks.

dwjm3

Great…So what is your plan to make us a contender by 2020? Difficult to come up with a different path 

35Shields

Great point. Had they made such an offer, they would have given up financial flexibility. That would mean that they wouldn’t be able to sign a young, top-tier free agent if one became inexplicably available to this franchise… oh wait

MrStealYoBase

Except that with California taxes all they would have to do is match it

knoxfire30

we beat that offer at 280… i did the math

35Shields

Which is sad considering that the $20m difference is less than the money they may end up paying Alonso+Jay.

Also, I think $30m in CA is roughly $25.6m in IL.

jorgefabregas

If the White Sox weren’t willing to go over $300 million with Harper or Machado, then their announced interest at the beginning of the off-season was a ruse. It was always most likely that it was going to cost that much.

MrTopaz

Very much like me being interested in getting six pack abs. I won’t do the things that are needed to get there, but i’m definitely interested.

100%

Milky✌️

Looking forward to a season of rolling out broke ass Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso as a nice reminder of this stupid, stupid offseason

NateDPT12

It’s so damn White Sox to screw this up and then have to remind us by trotting our Alonso and Jay all year. What a complete shit show.

metasox

That’s what gets me. Not signing Machado is one thing. But the way the Sox went about it was historic.

Doesn’t the org have a history of misjudging who they will sign? Was Hunter another maybe? Every team has their misses, but I wonder if the Sox management is flawed in reading the market or player interest.

Big Hurt Beer

Yes they do, and it comes from the ownership. The Sox did the same thing with Torii Hunter. The Bulls were convinced Lebron was coming to Chicago in 2010.

NateDPT12

What a fucking joke. There’s no fucking way they shouldn’t have been able to beat 10/300. 

I’m choking on my own rage here.

Get outbid by the fucking Padres. Unbelievable.

MrStealYoBase

Waiting for the report of what the White Sox final offer was. I’m guessing not even close.

I don’t see the point in watching the team this year. Why invest time and emotional energy on a franchise that doesn’t want to win?

As Cirensica

This organization is a fucking joke. Worst than the Mets? Maybe.

dwjm3

We are below the Mets…They have been in the playoffs within the last five years.

PauliePaulie

Time for Rick to trot out the “you can’t force free agents to sign somewhere” garbage to explain away the incompetence.
Jay, Alonso and now Moncada at 3rd base. Getz better pull some prospect development out of his ass. Because as of right now there’s very little to look forward to.
PS- Congrats to the Padres for being the better franchize….again.

joewho112

Jesus, I just realized: the franchise’s entire future is in the hands of Chris Getz.

As Cirensica

More terrifying: it is still in the hands of Rick Hahn!!!!

joewho112

He doesn’t make the draft picks and he evidently doesn’t sign free agents so not really

As Cirensica

He hires those who do that

PauliePaulie

And the minor league managers bragging about fining top prospects every time they pull a ball, regardless of situation and pitch location.

itaita

I never thought Machado was all that interested in signing with the Sox anyway. It just felt they were always the 3rd or 4th wheel in all this that was being used to raise the price. So im not that upset about it.

Soxfan2

No, he wanted what he was worth ($300 million) and got it from a team that was willing to pay. If the Sox offered $300 million, i’m sure he would be signing his name right now. But per usual, Jerry didn’t want to pony up and the sox will now take half measures and be “mired in mediocrity” forever 

NateDPT12

According to KW they couldn’t go to 300M and are shocked they didn’t have the highest offer. ?  Shocked that Machado signed for what he even asked for.  What a complete joke.

I fell for it, I honestly thought things were going to be different. This franchise will continue to pursue half measures “Jerry’s way” instead of ponying up and doing what it takes to win.  My confidence in this rebuild coming to fruition is gone. 

Their spin on this will be to say they’ve already got a superstar in Eloy, then talk about staying true to the process, and then when we’re in year 5 of the rebuild hoping  everyone forgets the reason we traded Sale, Eaton, and Quintana was to shorten the time to contention.

MrStealYoBase

I just don’t understand what Jerry’s thinking is. He’s 82. What are the chances he’s around to pay out at the end of that 10 year contract? Take a page from Mike Ilitch and just go all out for one last shot.

asinwreck

The really remarkable thing is looking at the ages of each member of the team’s board. Jerry is nowhere near the oldest, and I wonder how much of the team’s business practices are derived from estate planning issues.

dansomeone

“Couldn’t go to 300M”? I think he misspoke, as the correct word here is “wouldn’t.” If they aren’t going to really try to compete, then why should fans give them their time and money? There are plenty of other things to do out there. One could become a fan of the up and coming San Diego Padres, for instance!

ParisSox

I like that Tatis kid

PauliePaulie

Maybe Josh Donaldson or Mike Moustakas can put up a 2-2.5WAR season and we can sign one to a slightly inflated multi-year deal that carries him solidly into his mid 30’s.
#SoxLife

Yolmer's gatorade

Machado is definitely disappointing, but the success of the rebuild lies with the Sox’s ability to generate quality players from within. If they do that, there will be free agents next year to sign. If they can’t do that, there was no point in signing Machado anyway.

hitlesswonder

Apologies beforehand, but I think that’s a facile argument. There is no Machado or Harper to sign next year – 26-year old stars rarely become free agents. Moreover, if the Sox signed Machado and things fell apart, he would be trade-able and would bring back talent. It’s hard to look at this and not feel the Sox are unwilling to commit to paying and doing what is needed to build a winning team.

Yolmer's gatorade

Look at the return for Giancarlo Stanton. It was basically pittances. That is the position the Sox would have been in if the rest of the team does not get better.

It is a bummer. I hate the Alonso trade too, even though Jay is better than another year of crazy inconsistent Avi. But it does not really change the rebuild.

johnnyg83

The Marlins were desperate to get the money off the books.

Yolmer's gatorade

Nah, you can’t extract prospects from organizations on even value contracts. 10 years/ $300 million is an even value contract. No surplus value, no real prospects.

PauliePaulie

Then stop failing at developing prospects, sign Machado and win the weakest division in baseball in 2020 and beyond.
“Maybe they wouldn’t get a good return when everything else falls apart” is a terrible argument for not signing him.

Yolmer's gatorade

That’s not my argument. My argument is that one free agency decision does not matter when the Sox have not shown that their core players can win games. If the Sox win 75-82 games in 2019, then we can start getting upset about them losing out on free agents.

yinkadoubledare

Free agents are available when they are available. 26 year old free agents aren’t available next offseason if they win 75-82 games in 2019.

karkovice squad

The Sox don’t have and never had the top farm system and baseball. They don’t have that luxury.

And the team with the best farm system that, coincidentally, also hasn’t yet proven it can win games just acquired a premium free agent.

If you want to see what it looks like when you spin your wheels waiting to spend money, just look at the Twins.

karkovice squad

Who cares about the return in trade? The point is that they aren’t stuck paying the salary.

Teams can bank the most valuable production at the start of the deal and still get away with not paying full freight on the back end.

Papa Giorgio

Padres backbone will consist of Tatis Jr. and Machado. That’s fun to swallow.

craigws

Just waiting for a quote from Machado about how the likes of Tatis helped swing it for him.

hitlesswonder

KW on the Sox payroll constraints

I’m not sure what to say…the Sox appear to believe their path to a playoff team is to draft and develop better cheap talent than the Oakland A’s can. How can you ask a fan base to believe in that? It’s insulting.

The Sox payroll this season would have been lower than the Machado-less Padres if the Sox hadn’t wasted a bunch of money signing Machado’s friends. Those moves are what makes this whole situation farcical.

The best asset the team currently has that they are the odds-on favorites to have the top pick in the 2020 draft. There’s no way that should be the case for a team that traded Sale/Q/Eaton and have had payroll space to burn.

craigws

Yup, the White Sox are not a small market team as much as they act and talk like one. Insulting is right.

gooch

Who are Arenado’s BFFs? We got to get a jumpstart on next year’s free agency.

Milky✌️

Gotta get em onboard in time for him to sign that extension in Colorado

PopeDonnPall

Listening to Kenny’s press conference.

1 – He learned about via tweet and hadn’t spoken to Machado’s agent since yesterday.

2. When asked about Moncada playing 3B being related he said yes as part of the reason and added that it was also related to what prospects they have in the pipleline, ie – Madrigal.

3 He said if the reports about the $ are accurate, there was the potential for Manny to make more in Chicago. Doesn’t make sense unless he just means because of taxes.

SonOfCron

As to 3, of course there was “potential” to make more in Chicago. Had he accepted our offer, he could have potentially then gone on to win the Powerball.

joewho112

On 3, possibly the Sox were willing to give a bigger signing bonus (wouldn’t be taxed because Manny lives in FL plus time value of money)

metasox

Or maybe something to do with marketing opportunities. Though I don’t know how true that would be for someone on the second team in the market

HallofFrank

I suspect for #3 the Sox offered a higher AAV. For instance, if the 8 year $250 rumor was correct that’s a higher AAV. Given conflicting rumors earlier and now the language Rick and Kenny are using, I also suspect there were some creative parts of this deal that could have effected the final $ amount. 

HallofFrank

And it appears that is the case: https://mobile.twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1097938351850770432

PopeDonnPall

I think ego is part of the equation and I do think him getting something that says $300 that doesn’t require incentives to a superstar is better deal for him.

Also they can try to sell that they were ‘in the game’ all they want but they didn’t add A-Rod, they didn’t add Hunter, they didn’t add Manny. CLOSE DOES NOT COUNT.

And why are they taking a few hours to feel sorry for themselves when there is still a guy out there unsigned. Why are they not trying to throw a wrench into the Harper/Philly talks? They’re walking around with the body language of losers.

PauliePaulie

#3 is a distraction. Don’t fall for it.
When Anderson gets here, everything will be fine.
When Moncada and Burdi get here, everything…..
When Lopez and Giolito get here….
When Eloy and Kopeck get here….
When Madrigal gets here….
Next year it will be Bryce Bush that we’re supposed to wait 2 years for, to make it all better.

MrTopaz

He explained his shock further, saying, “I have a hard time believing our well documented expertise with, and finely tuned reading of, high profile free agent markets could be blind sided so completely. At least we have our world-beating pro and amateur scouting departments, the envy of the league, to help curb the disappointment of this unfortunate turn of events.”

There are unconfirmed reports that this statement was followed by the distant sound of heads exploding coming from the northeast.

lil jimmy

You can be crazy about a girl. Buy her flowers. Take her to the best restaurants. In the end, it’s her decision. If she’s not interested, you got no chance. I don’t think Machado was ever interested.
That simple.

HallofFrank

I think this is partially true, but i don’t buy that it’s that simple. Fact is, the other guy did the restaurant, bought her flowers, and bought her jewelry. We just invited her friends over for a slumber party. 

PopeDonnPall

Silver lining: Maybe they can flip Colome or Herrera at deadline for a Ryan Cordell-type.

hitlesswonder

That will be exciting…I look forward to the press conference hearing about how acquiring said player is a big step forward in the rebuilding process.

Milky✌️

Looks like you can get a round-trip Amtrak ride from Union Station to Milwaukee for $25.

karkovice squad

Sox really want to prove how big a disconnect there is between ticket sales and profit.

But hey, at least Manny got paid.

polishwith

Why does being a Sox Fan feel like I have a 2nd job?

GrabSomeBench

I can’t stop laughing at this one because it’s true

PopeDonnPall

Hope Springs Briefly Part II

James Fegan
‏Verified account @JRFegan
5s6 seconds ago

Luis Basabe suffered a broken hamate bone in his right hand yesterday in batting practice. Surgery tomorrow in Chicago. Out for 4-6 weeks. Expected to play again in 12 weeks.

metasox

So 2019 starts out like 2018

johnnyg83

don’t stop there

PopeDonnPall

That should free up some AB’s for Jameson Fisher in Birmingham. #NEXTSOX

jorgefabregas

And probably will not hit for power this season.

asinwreck

So no 2019 power (typical hamate side effect) for a player with one option left. Terrific.

soxfanpa

Well at least I’ll save some money by being disappointed, drunk, and sunburnt at home this summer.

asinwreck

The 2019 White Sox: We Have Yonder Alonso, So Buy Season Tickets.

Right Size Wrong Shape

Gonna be awesome when Alex Call emerges as a Top 100 prospect this year.

You’re thinking small. Midseason call-up and goes on a tear.

PauliePaulie

I really don’t think I’d be this enraged about them missing out on Machado, if they weren’t being so damn White Sox by moving Moncada to 3B and talking up Madrigal like it’s some sort of acceptable, or inteligent, alternative.

dwjm3

This is certainly part of it…The move around guys to fill gaping holes strategy is never an effective tactic by them.

craigws

If they are going to insist on that they should get into the sex industry.

soxfanpa

The folks who work in the sex industry deserve appreciation and respect.

craigws

No argument here.

denbum

Months ago, I mentioned a different direction in the ‘move Moncada’ plan. It was my thought that instead of moving Moncada to third, why not keep him on the right side of the infield, moving him to 1B and make Abreu full-time DH when Madrigal comes up. Better defense then at both 2B and 1B. 3B can stay with Yolmer, or take a shot at Arenado next winter, or maybe Burger is healthy and actually meets expectations. Tho it was a brief trial, I seem to remember that Moncada didn’t impress anyone at third base in the Boston organization.