Tim Anderson, Michael Kopech done for year; Tony La Russa reportedly done
Removing Tony La Russa from the White Sox’s managerial position only solves one problem.
If the White Sox vacated the position by moving La Russa into some kind of front office role, that’d give him even more face time with Jerry Reinsdorf, who is the only guy who wanted him around in the first place, and that doesn’t help the White Sox get started unraveling the Gordian knot that is their chain of command.
There have been reports that La Russa won’t be returning in the managerial role, but 670 The Score’s Dan Bernstein has taken it a step further:
“Unlikely to be involved in any capacity” is the key sentence in terms of truly turning the page on this particular chapter, although nobody should think the work ends there. The rest of the front office, roster and staff needs a serious reckoning. What does Rick Hahn bring to the table besides an enviable collection of quarter-zips? How exactly does Kenny Williams spend his time? Why would Daryl Boston and Joe McEwing be entitled to work for a fourth manager? Who was actually hurt, and who just played dead?
La Russa’s complete removal might allow people around the White Sox to be more forthcoming about the “weird and unhelpful edicts” James Fegan and Ken Rosenthal have alluded to. For instance, if La Russa truly represented a bottleneck that prevented players from being shelved when they clearly didn’t look right, then perhaps he is uniquely responsible for the half-assed play, because he refused to admit the other glute was strained.
But even if La Russa made players solve three riddles before they could report to the injured list, there’s no way he could be responsible for every way the White Sox have painted themselves into corners. La Russa didn’t exercise Craig Kimbrel’s option, effectively trading $16 million for 16 million Chuck E. Cheese tickets. La Russa didn’t add Jake Diekman’s salary for next year’s books.
La Russa’s tenure might be so oddball that everybody else can hide behind it, and from what we know about the White Sox, that would merely allow some other glaring flaw to hog the spotlight the next time around. The organization would thoroughly benefit from an open and honest accounting, although also given what we know about the White Sox, we can pretend they’re facing Bailey Ober and pencil them in for an 0-for-2.
While La Russa’s future remains unofficial until the end of the season at the earliest, other obvious end-of-year decisions were finalized before Tuesday’s dud at Target Field. Tim Anderson won’t make a return from his hand surgery, nor Michael Kopech from his right shoulder inflammation, since he’s also dealing with a cyst in his knee.
A new injury surfaced to really capture the spirit of the season: Seby Zavala went to the 7-day concussion list retroactive to Monday, with Carlos Pérez taking his place.
We’ve previously discussed whether Kopech’s season counts as a success (and to what degree), but Anderson’s registers as a clear disappointment. He’ll finish with a .301 average, his fourth consecutive season hitting over .300. He’ll also finish with his fourth consecutive shortened season (three injury-, one pandemic-), this time coming up well short of the batting title. He played just 79 games and accrued just 351 plate appearances, and if he resembled his pre-surgery form, his average would start with a “2” after a game or two. He didn’t help the team after returning from his groin strain, and he’ll be one of those aforementioned injury-hampered performances that require close scrutiny when the White Sox are trying to get to the root of their underachieving.
(I’m glad I didn’t waste too much time discussing whether Elvis Andrus should have to move to second base, although my worse-case scenario of a five-game deficit this week looks downright quaint. I only underestimated the gap by half.)
The addition of Pérez likely gives the White Sox an additional player who cares, just because his first and only start was so ragged that he could use all the chances to erase that first impression. He shouldn’t be as bad as he looked, and given the disparity between what he showed in Charlotte and his MLB debut, perhaps he was inspired to enhance the effectiveness of the “SELL THE TEAM” banner that floated around the lower bowl that night.
Author
Look, let me first say this: I despise Reinsdorf. I still haven’t forgiven him for killing the greatest NBA team that ever existed, and I’ll never pardon him for the TLR debacle. He’s quite possibly the worst owner in all of sports–he doesn’t respect players, he certainly doesn’t respect fans, and he uses his teams as vehicles for doling out personal gifts and rewarding “loyalty” (i.e. shut up and do what I say).
However. I love the Sox. I’m born and raised on the South Side, and the Sox are my team. If there’s any glimmer of hope in this dumpster fire of a season, it’s that Hahn and KW grab the bull by the horns, realize they have 2, maybe 3 years to win this thing, and do what needs to be done.
They need a real manager. They need to cut Diekman and Garcia and eat the cost to free up the roster spots. They probably need to let Abreu go. These are hard choices, but the thing is, if healthy, they still have a ton of great pieces and they’re in a crap division. They CAN correct things.
The question is: Will Reinsdorf let them? Will Hahn prove he’s got the smarts to get a rebuild beyond the “build” stage? I honestly don’t know, but I hope like hell this is the winter the Sox front office finally conquers its worst enemy–itself.
Well, I don’t despise Reinsdorf but I do wish he would sell the team but it’s just not going to happen. I would be fine with a FO house cleaning but I don’t know if that will happen either. In a worst case scenario I could accept Williams dropping back down to GM and let Hahn drive La Russa back to Arizona and not come back.
I do beg of JR NOT to hire anyone else in the organization as manager. You want 1 final World Series Jerry? Go get Bochy, Ron Washington, Gardenhire, if any of them want to manage. We need a hard ass to manage this team. Oh, get rid of your training staff too, please. Hulksmash, while I agree to letting go of the players you mentioned, I don’t know if that’s JR’s MO. I, like all Sox fans, was stunned with the Garcia extension. Diekman was flaming poop and bless Abreu but I believe it’s time for him to fly. Anderson is not going anywhere but I would try to bring back Andrus and Cueto on 1 year deals. I still don’t know about Kopech. A lot of these guys seem fragile.
Jim, I’d like to know who Bernstein’s source is? I will not listen to him but would like to know who his connection is.
I’m with you–any of those managers would be glorious, especially in comparison to what we’ve had in recent years (though I don’t mind Ricky, TBH).
I fear the same. They likely won’t cut the dead weight and eat the costs, though I beg to be proven wrong. It’s just an unlikely scenario, even though those are essential moves. You can’t win with players that bad on your active roster. You just can’t. Lest we forget even if they do cut Diekman, Joe Kelly will still be around.
I, too, would bring back Andrus. if Cueto wants a 1-year deal, bless him. Though I doubt that happens–he didn’t seem like the happiest person over the past year, and I wouldn’t blame him not wanting a second helping (which, therein lies the problem when your organization is this dysfunctional–no one wants to play for you!).
The reality is, we’re stuck with JR, Hahn, and KW for the foreseeable future. Our only hope is they realize, and fast, that their way of doing things doesn’t work, and they need to either change or see this organization buried in its own dysfunction even deeper.
Hey, since JR now realizes that Hawk Harrelson maybe was right in firing TLR, maybe he’s bring Hawk back as GM! Wouldn’t that be swell? I think he’s younger than Jerry!
Ha!
I think the only was we’re stuck with the aforementioned is if they convince Jerry that Tony was THE problem and with the right man the Sox can win with the majority of the talent they have. I would love to know how long Williams and Hahn’s contracts go for.
Any discussion of dead weight without mentioning Grandal is not a serious discussion.
Let me tell you about how he called team ownership a charitable public trust, threatened to move the team out of Chicago, got Illinois and Chicago taxpayers to pay for a stadium while he extracts all the revenues, And then was head of the owners that played absolute hardball with the players that lead to the canceled 1994 World Series,
“I’ve always looked at the ownership of a baseball franchise as a public trust, maybe even a charitable thing, I’m serious about that. I never did forgive Walter O’Malley for moving the Dodgers from Brooklyn to Los Angeles.”
PS, that 1994 White Sox team had the best Pythagorean Win Loss Record of any White Sox team since 1964 (Better than 2020, 2021-, 1983, 2005, etc)
Just some misdemeanors to add to his legacy, haha
Not to mention getting the State of Illinois to displace a thousand Chicagoans for the building that formed the basis of his wealth. (And, by doing so, establishing a strategy for other MLB owners to extract wealth from the public.)
What thousand? Sounds like urban legend. By the 80’s south of old Comiskey where the new stadium went was almost all parking lot. You had McCuddy’s and the building next to it and one east, that’s about it. Maybe 5 apartments if that many. The school is still there, the church is still there, the senior housing is still there, and Wentworth Gardens is still there. The old warehouse or factory or whatever it was on Pershing came down but it was commercial not residential. There was the lot next to that which the guy wouldn’t sell but he never sold it so who cares. You want to cry for people getting displaced cry for the ones in the way of the Dan Ryan, or 290, or UIC.
My dread: Gordon Beckham.
Is this in relation to Beckham being the next manager or does Beckham haunt your waking dreams every day (like he does the rest of us)?
UGH.
I don’t think they’d try to hire Beckham as manager. Please, promise me they wouldn’t.
On the other hand, it would get him out of the broadcast booth……
Sorry, we were looking for “who is Willie Harris…. Willie Harris”
Bruce Bochy. Boom.
what i wouldn’t do for him
So we lose 10 years and the “Hall of Famer” tag but keep the general oldness and lack of recent success?
10 1/2 years is quite a gap in years. Hell, Dusty Baker is 73 and still going pretty strong. I think we’re only looking for Bochy to manage maybe 5 years and that would be fine. They winning window would be slammed shut by then anyway and he’d want out.
Let’s not forget it’s 10 years in age but also years of alcoholism. I’m not making light of TLR’s struggles, but years of hitting the bottle as he did accelerates aging and metal deterioration to a serious degree.
Are you saying I should quit drinking or that I can drink as long as I don’t manage a baseball team?
To be honest, I have no idea what goes on in his life other than him being pulled over a couple times. He does look a little rough around the gills though.
Dusty Baker just sucks on a toothpick.
Bochy retired much more recently, and his teams repeatedly outperformed their talent levels in the playoffs, he never had anything close to a juggernaut roster to wield like the Dodgers always do. The last three years of his tenure, the rosters were dreadful. Even in his last playoff appearance, 2016, there were only three position players with fWARs over 2: Posey, Crawford, and Belt, and only three pitchers over 1.0: Cueto, Bumgarner, and Samardzija. Getting to the playoffs with Joe Panik and Angel Pagan as two of your nine best players across the roster is an impressive feat itself. This 2022 Sox team performed far worse with considerably more talent & pedigree across the board.
I’m not saying no, those last 3 seasons just give me pause. And boy, Joe Panik. I remember wishing so hard for him to be something in fantasy baseball after his first two seasons…
The only potential manager that has been referenced that I have a potentially favorable reaction to is Joe Espada, and I’m not sure about him. I don’t want a retread coming to the White Sox to pick up another few million annually before riding off into the sunset: that includes Maddon, Bochy, Shildt, etc I also don’t want Willie Harris for other reasons. This is a fucking dumpster fire that most strong candidates will want nothing to do with, which makes it a difficult job and puts a lot of pressure on getting this hire right. Poor farm system, crappy contracts and a dysfunctional organization requires threading the needle. I am not confident.
Then why do you want to give it to a first timer? As Stone says, that’s 5-7 games lost to first timer managing.
I don’t think I said that I “wanted” to give it to a first-timer. I said that I wasn’t sure about him. But his experience with successful organizations, his non-involvement in the cheating scandal and his high ranking around baseball is enough to give him an interview and a shot. He is a strong candidate generally and, if the interview and due diligence went well, I would consider him despite him being a first- timer.
Much better answer. 🙂 I agree, I want a search process that’s diligent and well considered with strong candidates.
Never say tanking doesn’t get results
If you wish to be on the IR sixty, you must answer me these riddles three
“I don’t know that!”
*player launched into the starting lineup*
I wouldn’t be surprised if the next manager is Justin Jirschele
Remember I said no one from their organization? I know he was AA manager but that’s all I know about him.
I would.
Start with Theo Epstein and go from there.
Jerry would have to be gone for that to happen.
Theo doesn’t tolerate a meddling owner. He mandated it as a prerequisite for taking the Cubs job.
Yes, absolutely. Of course that means Jerry gets rid of Williams and Hahn. We all have our dreams!
I hope I’m dead wrong about this, but:
I don’t think we live in a world where JR would fire TLR.
I don’t believe Tony would voluntarily walk away from $4mil in ’23.
This looks like the non-Jerry Sox people trying to use the media to force Tony out (and deflect blame).
How dare you question Dan Bernstein, the almighty wizard!
I’ve had hornet stings I like better than Dan Bernstein.
Doesn’t the last 6 games illustrate the character of the Sox players? They have just thrown in the towel. It doesn’t look like they care if the Twins finish ahead of them in the standings. 14 strike outs against Bailey Ober! This team as currently constructed will never win anything no matter who the Manager is. Real professional athletes should not need their manager to motivate them to compete.
Management doesn’t care about finishing before Minnesota, and they shouldn’t. They’re shutting everyone who’s hurt down for the year for good reason. There’s zilch to be done now except give guys like Carlos Perez or Mark Payton playing time in the bigs. Pushing players for the “pride” of second place in the worst division in baseball does nothing to help win games next year, but it could hurt winning games next year if someone’s hurt in the final meaningless games and it delays their offseason training. Everyone in the org can’t wait to turn the page on this disaster of a year, and I’m right there with them.
I’ll be shocked if we see Payton or Perez tonight.
Mark Payton is 30 years old and Carlos Perez is 25 years old and has been in the White Sox organization since 2014.
Perez is the third catcher in the organizational depth chart, so he should get a look to end the season. I agree about Payton, though. The time to call him up was when Robert got hurt. Now I’d rather see Haisely for a week, not that it really matters.
Yeah, I’m not saying they’re important or likely contributors, though Perez is mildly intriguing. Catchers often take a while longer to develop than any other position.
Neither Perez or Payton are in the lineup tonight.
So much for “2nd place is the best” winning philosophy of Jerry Reinsdorf. We’ll be lucky to finish 3rd.
I mean, we are just trying to stay on brand by finishing 3rd (whether intended or not my brain when to the elementary school rhyme).
I saw an article about the top 100 coaches likely to be the next manager, but it was too clunky to even be useable…as such, I would be interested in seeing a quick run down of manager prospects around the league. I only really know some of the major names.
I think the OPP this year will be interesting, as I’m sure it will focus on replacing manager and some marginal talent additions. But I think that first part can be pretty important. It really seems like this team struggled with some things directly related to management, 1) culture, and 2) preparation. The first one could be easy to fix with the right guy that can relate to a younger roster, or at least be more enjoyable than whatever that was. The second feels like its needed addressing for years now. Players seem absolutely befuddled with other teams mediocre pitchers, perhaps unaware of any scouting report or tendencies. The fielding is and has been terrible, and while some of it is that many of them do not project as good fielders generally, scouting report and fundamentals are important. Fundamentals can and should be coached. They also desperately need a different hitting approach.
And finally, please for the love of God not hire Ron Gardenhire. His style of offensive play is basically what the Sox did this year. His Twins teams were successful because they played good defense, were scrappy on the bases, and had a contact oriented approach at the sacrifice of power. This team is not built to win that way, and that approach isn’t going to work. Hire someone who knows how to match the analytics to the approach.
HA! I only threw his name out there because I saw his name on a site. Like you said, I can only come up with names that have been there done that. I wouldn’t have a clue about any young and upcoming names. Terry Bevington is only 66 and was 8 games over .500! There we go!
I’m gonna go back to my original pick from before TLR was hired: Matt Quartraro, the current bench coach of the Rays.
Either Quartraro or Espada–2 excellent candidates
For 2023 to be successful, Hahn must follow Tony out the door. If the last 3 winters are any indication, he has absolutely no idea how to construct a complete roster. Even if he stood up to Jerry, he’s still not capable of putting together a well-rounded team. I would poach a GM from a well-run organization and trust that he will find a good manager. And, yes, Leury should never wear a White Sox uniform again. Just eat the $11.5M
Yes. But IF Jerry decides to go through another season with just a new manager then this team has no path. If he can’t see how rudderless this team has been, injuries and all, then there is no future. AGain, drop Williams down to GM if you’re afraid of too much change but for the franchise and the fans sake, do something.
I will say it again: if the team is eating money, the first name should be Grandal. Leury is a problem, but he’s a 5.5M problem in 2023, and, while overpaid, he can fill a function on a major league roster. Catcher is critical and we don’t have one, and we’re paying a guy 19M to pretend to be one.
The fact that Carlos Perez is the third catcher in their organizational depth chart tells you how bad everything is. When Grandal was injured earlier in the year they were afraid to play Perez. That tells you how much confidence they have in him.
Catcher depth is a problem for every team. Its why guys like Jeff Mathis can play till hes 38.
Tell that to Toronto lol
It’s not a they, it’s a he….TLR
Almost would have been nice to be eliminated earlier so we could get a better look at the kids. I still think not calling up Colas was beyond stupid. But obviously I am not one of the geniuses running the Sox.
I have always took Jerry for what he is: a businessman who owned a baseball team. He always put the bottom line and ROI first, well before the fans or players. He would invest in the product only if it made financial sense. While as a fan I hated the approach, I think most of us understood at a high level what his motivations were.
What always baffles me is JR’s unending commitment to people who are loyal to the organization and ultimately him despite performance or ability to do the job they are hired for.
The hiring of TLR is the classic and most egregious example. Why invest $190m in payroll and have a guy way past his prime manage? What fiscal sense does that make? What an utterly boneheaded decision that is probably the main reason they lost a year of their “window”. It’s beyond stubborn or stupid.
Seems that rather than trusting the judgement of others, he made his own call because he really believed it was a good idea
If the team only lost one year of their “window”, they will be incredibly lucky.
Well, read it and weep.
Like, literally weep.
https://twitter.com/JayCuda/status/1574943345054744576/photo/1
Maybe baseball is a fundamentally different industry than those I have experience in, but as someone who’s made a fair bit of money doing “data analytics,” I’m not really all that fussed by the chart. The question isn’t whether you have 5 or 35 data scientists on your team, the question is how you balance the analytical data available with other sources of information in order to make the best decision. If those 5 people have opinions that are well-regarded and listened to as valued input, then 5 very well may be enough. If the Sox have only hired those 5 to say, “me too” when it comes to answering the question of whether or not a club has a data analytics department then it’s a failure.
The A’s are widely regarded as one of the most historically innovative clubs out there and they only have 7 (or 8?) data analysts, while the Giants, Cubs, and Diamondbacks are proving more isn’t always better.
I guess my point is, from a data analytics standpoint I’d question the p-value of the implied correlation here.
The Giants had 107 wins last year. That’s 7 more wins than the White Sox have *ever* had in a regular season. I think it’s a stretch to suggest that they aren’t a well-run organization.
The Epstein/Hoyer rebuild seems to have been much more successful than any White Sox team ever, with five playoff appearances, three LCS appearances, and one world series.
I do not know that much about the Diamondbacks, but I do know they have a similar run differential as the White Sox, while having a younger team with about 40% less payroll.
I agree that there’s not necessarily a strong causal relationship between data-people and winning, however I think it is a good indicator of a team’s willingness to spend at the margins. Part of the Giants’ success last year was credited to the large number of coaches they have at the major league level, for example.
I’m so old school that analytics don’t play a role. Give me a bunch of good ballplayers and take it from there. I kind of get their importance but…….sweet Jesus, give me good ballplayers. I’m not trying to start an argument in here. Give me good ballplayers and a good manager and I’m happy with the outcome. And screw the shifts. Let the hitter adjust. If you want millions of dollars then adjust. Baseball isn’t supposed to be this difficult.
Ahhhh, sort of. Go back to the adapt or die, and stats can be wonderful and overwhelming at the same time. And I like monitoring spin rate, but I can also tell when a pitcher isn’t fooling hitters the way he used to…with a nearly identical spin rate. Room for both.
The only questionable teams above the 15 line are da cubs, and failure is sort of a culture there, and the D-Backs. All the other 10 teams I’m envious of, each for different reasons, however, their success or closeness to it, is 10-2 above that threshold. A trend showing that high, can’t be dismissed as insignificant, can it?
There’s a near perfect correlation between the number of teachers and the number of prostitutes in any give society. Not because one causes the other but because both are a function of population. So, yes, if trends aren’t causal they can be easily dismissed.
The Mets have missed the playoffs for five years in a row before this year. Are we to assume the data analysts had nothing to do with five years of failure but a lot to do with this year’s success? Not based on the presented data, we shouldn’t.
The Astros are one of the most successful franchises in recent memory, but their cheating scandal may have had more to do with their one title than the size of their data analytics team. To the extent size matters, they have a middling number of staff but a record number of consecutive ALCS appearances. If the trend was causal we’d expect them to be a middle of the road team rather than a perennial contender.
This is not to say that the White Sox are a well run organization. They are not. But I no more trust Hahn to hire data analytics guys just to increase the size of the team than I trust him to sign relievers to increase the financial commitment to the bullpen. There’s a limited amount of significant data that’s relevant to building a winning club and adding data employees doesn’t necessarily add wins on a marginal basis.
Purely subjective reading of that data but 2 of those teams are in the playoffs with payrolls under $100 mil. One is the most heavily committed team to data analytics in the game to the extend of being an outlier, the other plays in the same division as the White Sox……..
If one was looking for a clustering pattern for number of analysts and postseason opportunity then 12-15 analysts looks ideal
Along those lines, it wouldn’t take a huge investment in analysts to lead the central.
This assumption is exactly the point I’m objecting to. The Sox could have an extra 12-15 data analysts AND Tony La Russa and still faceplate this year. It’s not a question of the raw number – it’s a question of their role within the organization, how valued their opinions, how those opinions are integrated into the decision making process, AND whether or not who hired them knows what they’re supposed to be doing.
The Sox could have an extra 12-15 data analysts AND AJ Hinch and still faceplate this year.
For a data analyst you refer to opinions quite a bit. I’m not sure I can trust your opinion especially if its my only data point. I think I am going to need more analysts to quantify these opinions. Looking at what others are doing in the industry, 12-15 should do be appropriate.
I think some of you are well describing the heart of this issue. It’s not so much a problem of “the Sox need more analysts,” it’s that the Sox need to know what to do with the data that the analysts mine. Sure, they can hire a dozen more analysts, but in an organization run the way this one is run, it wouldn’t matter. It’d be like dropping someone in the middle of nowhere and telling them to drive to Littleton, NH in a brand new Ferrari. If they don’t know where they are or where they’re going, the car doesn’t matter all that much.
The interesting thing when you look at that chart isn’t just success, but clubs that most would argue are operated wisely. Sure, they stumble–all clubs do. But these are teams that seem to have a grasp on what they’re doing and use their analytics smartly.
Meanwhile, there’s the Sox–whose problem isn’t that they don’t have enough analytics (although maybe they don’t), it’s that they aren’t even equipped to use it properly.
I believe in a minimum ration of 1 to 1 analyst to Vice Presidents. That’s not to say that every VP get his own data analyst which would be silly as some of those VP’s don’t even know what data is, let alone know that it can be analyzed. Of course you will need a new VP of data analytics so add one more there. Now the tricky part is the Senior VPs, do they require more than 1 analyst or would an older Senior Analyst who could explain that its like bunting but better?
So then we take the current number of VPs, 12, plus the new VP, 1, which gives us 13 which analytically is a bad number os add 1 more, so 14, oh and 1 for Jerry because well why not. That gives us 15 analysts needed to properly staff the White Sox.
I’m not sure if you’re being serious, but I do love the idea of a data analyst following JR around all day.
Half serious, but you are going to make me fall in love with the data analyst following Jerry around too.
There’s a sitcom brewing here!
The George Costanza of data analysts!
“We Have Watched You Take Our Beloved
YankeesWhite Sox And Reduce Them To A Laughing Stock!”The Mets have had a ton of front-office turnover, ownership change, etc. I wouldn’t assume that the number of analysts they have now is similar to 5 years ago.
I understand why Jerry won’t sell the team until he is gone.
I don’t understand why the baseball world has to wait for him to pass for things to improve.
Could he and TLR ride off into the sunset and let another take over the team?
I know, I know, that opens a lot of other issues but that is what many beg for and it is a good first step.
I believe Jerry’s next move is to announce that Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams will get full control over decisions moving forward. That will be his idea of consolation to the world, while still being “Loyal Jerry”.
Never. The Sox love operating without anyone really knowing who’s in charge. It allows them to spread the blame around and never having to hold anyone accountable. I can see TLR being moved to the office just to add another layer of blame.