White Sox add Nomar Mazara, but does Nomar Mazara add to White Sox?
Had I waited five minutes to publish my last post, I could have forgone the murky rumor stage of the Nomar Mazara acquisition and presented a straightforward, immediate analysis.
Alas, the White Sox indeed acquired Mazara, trading 2018 second-rounder Steele Walker for the privilege, so two separate posts you receive.
To sum up my stance on Mazara: He’s better than what they ran out in right field last year despite his flaws, and there are ways he can be useful, especially if the Sox find somebody else to face left-handed pitching. However, they have a poor history of asking too much from players who never rise to the challenge, and Mazara’s flaws feed into the their teamwide shortcomings.
Hahn’s quote on the press release covers Mazara the player, but something he said before the trade more fully explains the rationale.
There’s nothing wrong with that idea, especially since Mazara is only a year older than Walker, who is trying to show that he’s meaningfully better than Blake Rutherford. Hahn’s only going out on a limb if Mazara is Plan A for the yawning chasm in right field, because Mazara wasn’t good enough to hold that job for a team that’s trying to contend.
Perhaps he’s emboldened by the luck the Sox had with James McCann, who had an All-Star season after getting non-tendered by the Detroit Tigers of all teams. And hey, the White Sox refused to settle for McCann’s surprising adequacy, but instead aimed way higher and hauled in Yasmani Grandal. Hahn could be amassing more than he’s patching, just in a less satisfying order. Not all the precedents in play are awful.
It’s just that most of them are, and so nobody should trust that the White Sox can cut corners successfully. Even Hahn shouldn’t. This whole rebuild and the resetting of the payroll was supposed to allow the Sox to point a money cannon at their problems, instead of being compelled to thinly spread money around to a bunch of players who are as likely to be cuttable as they are valuable. Mazara, set to earn a projected $5.7 million in his second arbitration year while still searching for his first 1 WAR season, fits that mold like he ordered it himself.
My hope is that when we assess the depth chart in a month, Mazara is there as 20-homer depth at right field and DH, and the Sox have at least one better choice for the corner. Otherwise, they run the risk of restoring the position to where it was in 2016, which wasn’t nearly enough. Perfect may be the enemy of good, but there aren’t quotes about the toll of mediocrity because guys like Voltaire didn’t think anybody would be actively seeking it.
Author
Wow, that sucks big time. Steele Walker for 2 years of an overpaid underachiever? If that is all they do to upgrade their outfield, Grandal is probably going to ask for a way out of his contract.
3 years, but yeah.
No, he hits free agency in 2021. So it’s only 2 years.
His B-ref page says 2022. Nevermind I am reading it wrong, you guys are right. He has 4 years of service already.
I think there is a rule where he qualifies for an extra year of arbitration, it’s kind of like the super-two rule, but this rule is called the unremarkable-four.
Sure, it’s possible that the White Sox will unlock something and make Mazara a better player. But I have no reason to believe that will happen. I’m much more inclined to believe this is a dead cat bounce for another in a long line of Rangers prospects that were overhyped and under delivered.
I guess I knew they would find a way to disappoint this offseason. This is at least an unexpected and interesting way to disappoint.
A lot of us thought they should do better than Kole Calhoun, but they actually did worse. Nice move, Rick.
This is the kind of move that can only be evaluated after the offseason. In a vacuum, Walker for Mazara is fine. It’s a bad move if Mazara ends up the primary RF. It’s probably good move if the Sox add someone better to the OF, and Mazara is adding depth.
I will wait to withhold complete judgment on this. But now the Angels need a starter, the Twins still need two, Ozuna is likely headed to the NL. Who’s left for the Sox to spend money on? Castellanos? Then why get Mazara?
Sure, Castellanos would be great. It also might be a trade. Starling Marte, for instance, would still slot in really well with the Sox. I’ve also been beating the Clint Frazier drum for while (though that beat is slowly fading…).
You get Mazara for depth. Right now, the Sox’s primary DH would be…McCann? Mazara would be a decent platoon with him. Last year he had an .844 OPS (110 wRC+) against righties while McCann had an .864 OPS (132 wRC+) against lefties.
It would also be wise for the Sox to have OF depth. Whoever plays RF, presumably Eloy and Robert are in LF and CF. Neither has ever played 123 games in a season and both have struggled with injuries. It would be a good idea to have some sort of contingency plan. Mazara is a guy who could slot in for a week or two.
I think when supporting arguments for getting Mazara rely on the Sox now going out and getting other, better guys that play the same position, it’s a sign it wasn’t a good move.
No, this doesn’t hold true. Any move should be analyzed in context, and in particular the context of how the player is going to be utilized.
If the plan is…
…primary RF w/ 550+ PAs = bad move.
…OF depth who primarily hits RHP w/ 300-400 PAs = good move.
Trading a top 10 prospect for a bench player is bad business.
This is way overvaluing top 10 org prospect status.
It’s not overvaluing it. When you have massive holes in starting spots and that prospect has value to the league, the best use in a trade is part of a package for a good player that can meaningfully help the team.
Walker doesn’t have value to the league. He’d be a rounding error in value on a trade for a better veteran than Mazara. The Sox aren’t lacking the kind of utility/bench/AAAA depth that Walker offers. They still have Basabe, Rutherford, and Gonzalez to round out a trade.
What they’re lacking is sufficient headliners who aren’t already slated to fill holes on the MLB roster.
You’re agreeing with me though!!!! Walker isn’t going to be a star but trading him for Mazara doesn’t actually do anything to push this team towards contending for a championship.
He moves the needle if they put him in the role he’s cut out for. And the price they paid is fine if they do.
The issue is more about timing and seeming to lock themselves into a course of action while better alternatives still exist. It was also unnecessary since there were other equivalent options still available even if the Rangers insisted on moving him to someone else now.
From The Athletic article this seems like a case of tunnel vision.
K-Squad has hit the nail on the head!
This is a fine trade if Mazara is slotted to do a lot of DH’ing against RHP with some limited time in RF and the Sox plan to have someone better playing RF most days. The worry is that the Sox might think Mazara is a good choice for everyday RF.
among available players, who is a good choice for everyday RF?
Walker did not have a ton of value. That’s still no reason to waste it.
Labeling Mazara a “bench player” is misleading at best. Mazara’s ceiling is probably higher than Walker’s and I’d guess he’s a better bet to offer the Sox future value. It’s not a traditional prospect for veteran deal.
Sure…but what are the odds of them signing Castellanos or trading for Marte? Right now, as this team is constructed, the best-case context for Mazara is that he platoons with Adam Engel.
The odds are really high for them signing Castellanos if they just give him what he wants, which is money. They just aren’t inclined to do that. All of their failings are self imposed, not due to the market.
bUt tHeY oFfErEd wHeElEr mOrE mOnEy
I don’t know what the odds of them signing Castellanos or getting Marte are, but I’d guess roughly the same as they were yesterday—or at least they *should* be roughly the same.
That is the case *right now*, but my whole point is that the trade shouldn’t be evaluated right now. Or at least it shouldn’t be dismissed as a bad trade right now, unless you just love Steele Walker.
Ok, so Mazara as a platoon bat would be ok. As long as that platoon isn’t with Engel or Leury. Those two should have no function on this team other than bench piece. If they add Castellanos and then make Mazara/McCann/Castellanos the rf/dh platoon, that would be ok. But they absolutely need another bat that can also play rf at least against lefties (Marte, Castellanos, Ozuna).
Trading for Mazara and then trading for Marte when you could just have traded for Marte is peak White Sox. The only thing that could make it better (worse) is if they traded Vaughn and Collins for Marte.
Yeah, I don’t see how the Sox talent pool can support trading for 2 years of Marte.
Having 20 home run depth on the bench is a good thing. And Mazara is a +.800 OPS guy against righties. He would be solid depth and/or a good LH platoon with McCann if they can add Castellanos.
Sure, if Marte cost Steele Walker, then yeah.
If I had to guess, Hahn talked to the Pirates about Marte and it went something like this…
Hahn: What would Marte cost?
Pirates: Vaughn or Madrigal.
Hahn: What about Steiver?
Pirates: Vaughn or Madrigal.
Hahn: What about Dunning?
Pirates: Vaughn or Madrigal.
Hahn: What about all four of our 1st round picks from 2015-2017?
Pirates: Vaughn or Madrigal.
The failure of our second tier of prospects to do anything to raise their stock in 2019 really damaged their ability to make trades without losing players they’re counting on in the immediate future.
Just hypothetical. What if the Pirates wouldn’t trade Marte for what the Sox were offering, but a package with Mazara does change their mind? However, I would guess had that been the case it would have be a 3 way deal.
If the Pirates wanted Mazara that trade would have already happened instead of the White Sox holding a press conference talking about how they intend to use him.
I thought Mazara’s $5.7M salary would impede Texas’ ability to get a top ten prospect from any org, let alone the Sox. But then I took another look at Walker and realized they are only about 14 months apart in age and while Mazara has four MLB seasons behind him, Walker has yet to reach even AA. weird. I don’t mind seeing him go. He only OPS’d .771 at Winston Salem as a 23 year old.
Given the Sox well-known stinginess and serious need to sign free agents, doesn’t it seem rather unwise to spend $5.75m on a depth piece?
No, there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is planning to use Mazara as a regular.
I don’t think so, especially if you plan on that depth piece getting significant playing time (as depth pieces go) and need insulation against two young OF with, so far, a propensity for injury.
Another difficult part of in evaluating this trade is that the upside is baked in to the cost. Aside from path to playing time, the only thing separating Mazara from Yolmer Sanchez is the upside he offers. We can argue about how likely he is to reach it, but I think we’d all agree there’s at least *a chance* he turns into an above average (or better) player. Even if that chance is small, it’s not nothing.
As previously said, in a vacuum Mazara is more valuable than Walker. The question is how Mazara fits into the current roster and if this was the best use of Walker’s trade value versus using him as part of a package to acquire someone like Marte or Nimmo.
From a roster construction standpoint it’s hard to see why you get Mazara unless you plan to use him as power off the bench. Sure he’s an improvement over what they had in RF last year but what they had last year was historically bad. He’s not strong defensively or offensively and only has value against RHP. Why waste a roster spot, a prospect, and 5.7M on him when there are far better options? The Sox have no reason to think they couldn’t afford Castellanos, Ryu, and Keuchel.
It’s more half measures bullshit from an organization that’s either too incompetent or scared to field a team without major question marks. All they need to do this off-season to get substantially better is put competent Major League starters in RF, DH, and in the rotation. Not superstars just competent 2+ WAR players.
Mazara doesn’t do that and only adds another question mark to RF in a season where you’re going to be breaking in rookies at 2B and CF already.
Just to make a quick comparison, sure Castellanos is really bad defensively, but he had more doubles last year than Mazara had total XBH, and his WAR was more than Mazara has achieved in 4 years.
It’s not being scared or incompetent though. They just don’t give a shit. The bussinessification of major league sports has made it so providing a product doesn’t matter. They don’t need White Sox fans to show up to games because there are Red Sox/Yankees/Twins/Dodgers fans that will buy tickets instead.
So as we stand right now we have a replacement level player in RF, our CF and 2nd base situations are in complete flux due to service time, and based on previous history even when our top prospects come up they need a 3 month window for adjustment, we legit dont have a dh. Roberto lopez is our 2nd starter and dylan covey would be the odds on favorite for the 5th starter job.
The more dire news is the free agent pitching market is off and running like a freight train and the whitesox now down to 3 realistic options for guys who could fill the bill as a low end ace or high end number 2. The big problem with this being that the dodgers and angels were both just ready to give cole 300 mil, each certainly has a massive need for starting rotation additions and the bankrolls to do what it takes. If we were even going to assume that the angels and dodgers only walk away with 1 each of the big 3 remaining that leaves the sox in an all out bidding war with every other team that wants a high end starter like the braves, twins, etc.
This off season is starting to feel like a disaster.
Yup. I feel like Jeff Passan might be right, that the White Sox can’t get a top-tier pitcher to come here.
I suspect it’s because they’re not willing to overpay. It fits in with everything Reinsdorf has said about being calculated in the market. They think they should be able to bid $1 over the next team and win the services of players.
If they offer Madison Bumgarner $100M and the Dodgers offer him $98M, where do you think he’s gonna go? Would you go to the 72-win team, or would you go to the perennial powerhouse for basically the same money?
Absolutely
Many people will say Wheeler was overpayed, same with Strasburg. And nearly everyone’s expectations were blown away by Cole’s contract. I don’t know if we should be calling it “overpaying” any longer. It’s called market value when everyone is paid like that.
I guess I’m saying that given their position, they need to pay more than market value, because the only other option is to miss out on every difference maker.
Yeah, it’s scary but missing out feels like a real possibility now. I’d like them to sign Keuchel today to ensure they don’t come away empty handed. All that Grandal joy feels like it’s ancient history when I consider them not signing any meaningful SP.
If the Sox are going to bargain-bin the rotation, I would be more enthusiastic about replicating the Mazara pickup by focusing on young guys whose tools are louder than recent performance. The two pitchers I would try to get are Alex Wood (as I mentioned in my offseason plan) and Taijuan Walker (back from TJS, and I did not anticipate Arizona cutting him loose).
Getting both of those guys, and, say, Wade Miley, would give the Sox these potential starters: Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Miley, Wood, Walker. Kopech, Wood, and Walker are coming back from injuries, so managing their innings makes sense. Building that depth means if Lopez’s 2020 is anything like his 2019, the Sox won’t be sunk for lack of alternatives. This plan makes the prospect of Dylan Covey starting even one game for the 2020 White Sox a remote possibility, which is a goal I think everyone other than Dylan Covey’s mother can support.
I’d be less perturbed by bargain-binning if the Sox had shown they were any good at it.
With Mazara, the cost of the lottery ticket is actually pretty high…why pay 6M+a prospect when there are better players available as free agents? Mazara only has two years of control left, so this isn’t really even building for the future. That’s just being bad at being cheap.
Those are interesting names but my question is what are the Sox trying to accomplish. Would they expect to make the post-season juggling a rotation of uncertainty coming off TJS or who need innings managed for other reasons. Or, are they just shuffling through guys on deals of one year plus an option looking for a diamond in the rough. And, by my count, 14 pitchers started at least one game in ’19 so I would still have Covey on standby
I think with Wheeler off the board, the Sox have given up on trying to make the playoffs this season.
That’s my impression. They had one plan, and when it went awry they threw up their hands. Cause you know, White Sox + Wheeler = playoff team, White Sox + Keuchel/Bumgarner/Ryu = 78 wins.
Taking lessons from the Bulls front office. Very limited number of decisions they can make in a year.
Seems right. I commented elsewhere Hahn had said something to the effect that how competitive the team would be in ’20 depended on how the offseason went. Sure, that would be fairly obvious, but I suspect they really were counting on a particular set of dominoes
They gave up on 2020, last year
Hey, why spend $330 million on a lefty hitting right fielder when you can spend a prospect and $5.7 million for the same thing but far worse?
@asinwreck Exactly my thinking for what the Sox should do if the miss out on MadBum, Ryu and Keuchel for whatever reasons. Alex Wood seems especially intriguing.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about “intriguing” any more. Get me more “exciting” like the Grandal signing.
Yonder Alonso vs RHP in 2018 – 107 wRC+
Nomar Mazara vs RHP in 2019 – 110 wRC+
Don’t worry everyone he’s gonna be 3% better than Yonder!
The White Sox could platoon Mazara with Engel/Garcia/Basabe this year and get 2-3 WAR out of right field. So it’s not that dumb of a move that I’m upset.
However, this feels like a move you make when you have less resources to spend because you already spent a lot of your money and maybe some prospects on acquiring two starting pitchers.
So is their payroll going to be around $100M? Its starting to look that way. What happened to the money will be spent?
I still have the pitchforks in my amazon shopping cart. But the black Friday deal expired…
You are as cheap as the team you root for.
2 for 1 after XMAS. Bring a friend
No, I will still buy them at market value, although most consider it an overpay.
Maybe Hahn needs to change the quote to: “The money will be (theoretically) spent”.
“The money will be offered.”
When you start talking about Engel being part of a platoon, it should be clear something has gone wrong with the rebuild. By now, this team should be challenging for the playoffs.
This team is not any better than the one that Sale was traded from…the minor league system is not any better than the one they restocked…the management style and scouting are still the same. At the least, it’s boring to see them failing in the same old ways.
This is another “always finish second” move.
You misspelled “fourth”
Seriously, this team is so terrible that the last season that I look back on with any fondness is the last one they finished in 2nd
It’s like this team is incapable of 2 or 3 good moves in a row, and they are clueless with Plan Bs. Friends tell me, T calm down, we still have the rest of the offseason. I’m like, “do you remember this team’s moves as time goes by?” Hahn (who I freaking hate talking to the press btw), basically admitted he doesn’t know what to do when his initial plan fell off the rails.
Don’t calm down. Get pissed. Rile up everyone else. Make SoxFest into a living hell for any non-Sox player that dares to show their face.
What non-Sox player is showing up to SoxFest? Or were you referring to non-players who work for the White Sox, like Hahn and Williams?
First question: “Rick, since you took over the team eight years ago the White Sox have been worse than any franchise save the Marlins. Why do you still have a job?”
Count me as a fan of this move. Not because Mazara is anything special – he might only be a left-handed Avi – but it’s an intelligent use of capital.
What were the alternatives? Ozuna – would cost a top 50 pick (which is what Walker is) plus more than twice as much money and twice as many years and only a tick more production. Ozuna isn’t a 3-WAR player. Joc Pederson – it’s obvious the Dodgers were asking for more than Walker or that deal would have been done. Castellanos – if he’s going to get more than 5 years I’d probably pass too. Kole Calhoun – already 32 and his last 3 years he’s produced about the same as Mazara. Starling Marte – seems like the Pirates are asking for a lot.
As other posters have said several times, it’s not time to waste these years of Jimenez, Moncada, Anderson, et al. and Walker is about two years away.
Calhoun career wRC+ – 105
Mazara career wRC+ – 92
Or if you prefer just last year:
Calhoun – 108
Mazara – 94
I have a feeling (with zero evidence to back it up) that the Pirates would take Collins back in the trade for Marte but Hahn won’t do it even though we have Grandal because he was trained by Kenny and you never give up your guy.
Wasn’t Steele Walker “their guy?”
Ozuna is at least twice as good as Mazara with the potential to be even better than that. He also saves a roster spot compared to having to platoon Mazara. He’s absolutely more worth the $ and draft pick.
26 man roster probably makes a platoon easier to stomach, and the utility guys they already have on the roster (Luery & Engel) fit the other side of the platoon so that’s a non-issue imo.
He’s relatively cheap, he can hit RHP, they need guys who can do so. If it’s the only move, of course it’s awful, but in a vacuum, they have the other side of the platoon already on the roster, he’s pretty cheap, and a is significant upgrade over what they have.
Type of move that should be cheered if the rest of what they’re doing was any good. His $6M to fill a major hole (OF v RHP), is not going to stop them from making any good moves they should be making if they didn’t trade for him.
Technically you can fill a hole in a boat with toilet paper. Not that it’ll prevent it from sinking or anything.
Mazara and Engel had the same bWAR last year. Would you be a fan of the White Sox going out and picking up another Engel?
I’m not going to get angry about this until I see what comes next(if anything). For all the people saying “why give away prospects for Mazara when you have FA’s like Castellanos/Ozuna/Calhoun still sitting around”, i would propose… With DH still open, I could still see Sox acquiring one of those guys, or Marte to platoon with Mazara (okay, i guess Calhoun, wouldn’t be a great platoon partner candidate). Then they could have a DH as well on days Mazara is out in RF.
So the plan is to go out, give a ton of money to Castellanos, and then only have him bat against LHP? Or are you going to sign Calhoun/Ozuna or trade for Marte and not have them bat against RHP, even though they all hit better against RHP than LHP last season? I do not like either of these strategies.
No. If they had Castellanos, for example, he could play in RF to give Mazara days on the bench against a LHP starter, and be your DH against RHP. I’m trying to avoid a scenario where Mazara is platooning with Engel in RF because unless Robert is up on opening day, Engel will be needed in CF.
Though it so far appears the Sox were convinced to settle for a chunk of a DH platoon
The Athletic’s Levi Weaver gave a scouting report on Mazara based on conversations with Rangers sources (subscription required). Here’s part of it:
Weaver goes on to write that the knock on Mazara is that while he takes coaching well, he’s not very proactive on altering his approach. The worry is he will be what he has always been.
Forgot the link. Here it is.
Mazara is also another great exhibit for how broken arbitration is. Here’s a guy who’s never cracked 1 WAR, yet he’s projected for $5.7M because RBIs.
Counter point: WAR is flawed (even though it’s great and I love it). Teams don’t pay for WAR they pay for some of the components more than some of the other components of WAR. We’ve seen it with the catching market for years. We’ve seen it with players whose glove carries them. We’ve seen it with power.
We’ve seen it with Jose Abreu!
Mazara will hit around .260 and get over 20 hrs. Avi II? Perhaps. Another young player that will be under their control for 2 more years that could possibly turn into something better. If he doesn’t, then they will still get tons more production from him than they got last year from their right fielders. Plus, as much as I liked Walker as a prospect, he is an older prospect who is 1 year younger than Mazara and still in High A Ball. So, I don’t think we gave up much to get Mazara.
As I thought after checking the landscape 4 months ago, none of the right field options looked good for this off season. Both Castellanos and Ozuna have big time fielding issues, bat right handed and will cost a lot of money for at least a 4 year deal. The Dodgers were probably asking for a much better prospect than Walker to trade us Peterson and his .230 batting average, 30 hrs, higher salary and only 1 year of control. Calhoun hit .230 last year and would have cost more money.
So, I really didn’t mind the deal. Plus, the Sox will now likely have the money to overpay for a pitcher like Bumgarner, Keuchel or Ryu, which they likely will.
Joc has been about 30% better as a hitter than Mazara. I would have gladly paid the premium for him over Mazara.
I really like this comment bro, except for the last part. “which they likely will”.. I do not share in that sentiment, but i really hope you’re right.
@andyfaust: Ditto.
What makes you think he’s going to hit over 20 home runs? He’s never done it in his career in a ballpark even friendlier to power hitters than our own. He was on pace to last year but didn’t get enough playing time, and that was with the juiced ball.
Well he hits them to Right, and that’s where they go farther at the Cell. I think he’ll hit over 20.
He’s been more of an all-fields hitter in the majors. He probably need to go back to pulling the ball like he did in the minors for that to happen. Along with getting more elevation.
Which will probably affect his rate stats negatively outside of maybe slugging, but that’s just a guess. Also, I don’t know that he is going to (or can) make that sort of adjustment quickly enough to matter.
If he made both changes he’d probably come out ahead since the swing path change should make him better against breaking pitches.
He might still have enough time in the off-season to make it happen. The Athletic article doesn’t make it sound likely, though. But maybe being traded changes his approach to things.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Mazara making $6m. The problem here is the Sox decision-making. Their history lends little confidence to the idea that Mazara is a fit as is or that they know how to unlock his potential.
I don’t mind this move too much. The RF hole was the most difficult to patch this offseason with the choices available. Especially considering the OF talent in the next offseason.
I’m still more worried about the SP situation with FAs leaving the board.
There was a great RF option available last offseason and the Sox didn’t even make a run at him.
But they landed Jon Jay?
It’s almost as if they are incapable of thinking more than one step ahead of time
Man people had really high expectations from a team and FO that hasn’t come close to meeting those expectations for nearly a decade. Did everyone miss the charade of the Machado pursuit last year? Why this year would be any different beats me…
But I think this winter has proven to be a little different. The Grandal was a good to great signing by the Sox. Walker for Mazara is a good trade. They were (actually) competitive in the Wheeler market.
I’m seeing a lot of Castellanos talk and he works because he hits lefties. But man that’s a LOT of corner guys with bad gloves (Abreu, Eloy, Mazara, Castellanos, and Vaughn about a year away with some luck). There are probably enough at-bats to make it work, but I’m not crazy about it.
But since I still have no reason to trust this FO. Odds are they think Leury as the 4th outfielder is fine. And Castellanos will “cost too much” and they’ll sign Puig to a one year deal and it won’t really work…
Also I don’t think the Avi comp totally works here as Mazara has more pop (https://www.fangraphs.com/players/nomar-mazara/14553/comparison?position=OF&players=5760&page=6). The glove and OBP do grade out, though Avi is much more BABIP dependent as Mazara does seem to be a tad less of a free swinger.
The issue with Mazara, as Karko has pointed out, is Mazara basically means another move for RF/DH is coming.
I really don’t think the Sox will make a move for another RF/DH. How much more money and/or prospects will they spend to fill that hole when the rotation and bullpen still look like dumpster fires? Plus, I doubt they have given up on collins yet, and his position right now is DH.
So we are going to have a mediocre DH and a mediocre RF and our rotation will be mediocre (at best) after Giolito but I’m sure the FO will bill this as a successful offseason and shame us for wanting more.
I too think position player shopping is over. Two Starters, and maybe a bullpen Pitcher. Done.
If there’s anything to yesterday’s rumor of filling two holes in one deal, my guess is there’s another outfielder coming along with a pitcher.
Right fielder and some left-handed pop. One deal, two holes filled.
That’s what she said
me too, lil jimmy.
Which would be an improvement over the worse-than-replacement-level DH and worse-than-replacement-level RF of 2019.
Great! Very excited to win 75 games this season!
Why is an improvement from “worst ever in the history of MLB” something any fan finds acceptable when the result is more mediocrity?
Because they’ve beaten the hope out of us?
And the beatings shall continue until fan attendance improves.
Collins is quickly becoming the odd man out. Another corner bat would mean you wouldn’t DH Gradal all that often and the need for a guy who can catch in a pinch (Collins) is then redundant.
Once Robert and Madrigal are here, Leury is superfluous. They ought to be shopping him.
They need depth. Leury and Engel are perfectly fine as backups or starters against LHP.
If Leury or Engel is a starter against LHP, then this offseason was a colossal failure.
Leury was decent against LH last year. Engel against LH was, er, pretty good. That said, I don’t like a “plan” that figures in either of those guys repeating those numbers. And I especially don’t like it if your DH rotation becomes McCann/Collins. All that looks nice on paper but never seems to pan out on the field.
Given the White Sox couldn’t win with Avi 1.0 in RF and their old core, what makes them think they can win with Avi 2.0 in RF and the new core?
This doesn’t look like the kind of move that can help break you out of a decade of White Sox futility, and the front office should get no benefit of the doubt even after Grandal.
Maybe Frank Menechino is an actual wizard.
magician ?
well that didn’t exactly work. oh well.
lol
I’d like to hear Hahn talk more about his “tangible reasons for believing you can get this guy better”.
They think they can get him to hit the ball in the air more.
Isn’t that what they tried to get Avi to do?
They did change a bunch of things with his stance and how he loaded. His swing itself stayed flat. Steverson seems to have been a bigger believer in approach and putting players in position to use the swing they had than adjusting the swing itself.
Menechino might be a departure from that.
I’m trying my best to be as optimistic as possible about this trade. But if they offered Wheeler $125M, then punted on the rest of the offseason because he didn’t take it, that just shows how utterly incompetent this F/O is if they didn’t have a plan B. I sure hope that’s not the case.
Grandal aside, feels like the Sox are still working with washable finger paints in primary colors while the rest of the league has moved on to acrylics or Photoshop.
This seems unfair. Yeah, if you ignore the photoshop art they finished like, what, three weeks ago. Grandal is arguably the best $ for value signing of any team of the offseason so far. That shouldn’t be pushed aside.
It gets pushed aside until it no longer looks like an outlier.
What’s your set of data? If you’re grading the Sox on the last 15 years, then, yeah it’s an outlier. But it seems to me that the full rebuild signaled a change in direction and this is the first offseason in which they are (or should be) “all in.”
In that context, Grandal shouldn’t just be in the data set but the key piece.
It doesn’t matter whether you’re looking at the last month or the last 15 years. Grandal is still an outlier.
I think it’s a little early to smash the panic button here. They could easily sign Ryu or Bumgarner or trade for Price etc. This move basically means they won’t sign Ozuna or trade for Marte which isn’t ideal, I agree, but I’m not going to get too upset about at the moment. If they trade for Price and land Castellanos, I won’t be too upset. Mazara/Castellanos isn’t a bad Plan B (if Plan A was Ozuna). Of course, my Plan B isn’t only half way done…
As everyone is saying though, you can’t and shouldn’t trust this FO to actually make those last few moves considering their track record of NOT making those final moves over the last decade (or at least since the Adam Dunn signing).
The default is to assume they are being stupid, let them prove otherwise.
Grandal’s looking might fine.
Trey Mancini just sitting there in a Baltimore tunnel.
So now a DH and the only DH I want is JD Martinez.
Trade Nova, Basabe, Collins for the best bat in Boston.
That would be a great trade and a win for Hahn since Nova is not on this club. He is a free agent.
Signing Keuchel, Castellanos, Treinen and Alex Wood would still make this offseason a big success.
I don’t know if this is a good move, but the histrionics over the loss of Steele Walker are pretty overboard considering the other, comparable corner outfielders in the organization. It’s not like they gave up Tyler Saladino or Jake Peter, right? The angst was eerily similar.
Just an aside – do you know who’s absolutely untradeable the next few years?
Elijah Tatis.
Let’s add Benyamin Bailey to that list.
Granted, Mazara’s automatically better than the dross the Sox trotted out last year, but this puts me in mind of last offseason. The Sox lost a hundred games, so pretty much any addition should have provided something of a boost, and the Sox managed to bring in… Yonder Alonso and Jon Jay, two complete non-factors who provided almost worst case scenarios in terms of value.
I swear, Stephen A. Smith complaining about the Knicks’ free agency is our gd patronus.
Plus one for teaching me a new word. Dross cheers.
It’s going to make for some fun should the cubs new manager not be good.
I’m probably in the minority, but I like the addition. I was one of the few people who had acquiring Mazara in my offseason plan. I think he will take a major step forward and unlock some serious power. That being said, I will be upset if there isn’t another corresponding move for another bat (as well as some starting pitching). This addition in no way should preclude a pursuit of Ozuna or Castellanos. If the Sox add one of them along with Keuchel and another reliable starter this offseason will be a success.
I honestly don’t know if he has untapped power. He was decidedly average in exit velocity and hard hit % last year. Maybe he makes the jump to 25 home runs but he’s closer to Timmy than he is Eloy when it comes to the statcast numbers and that’s not great.
If he put the ball in the air more he’d probably hit more dingers.
He has a slapdick groundball rate.
The White Sox are supposed to be competing, which is why they should have acquired a player for right field who is already good, not might-be-good-if-he-improves-upon-2,200-plate-appearances-of-being-bad.
This sucks. This is a move for a rebuilding team. There’s a reason that the Marlins and Tigers were the other teams the Sox were competing against to acquire Mazara, and there’s a reason that the Rangers — a team looking to take themselves seriously — were trying to deal him away.
You hit the nail on the head. If you are competing for players with the Marlins and Tigers, you obviously are not serious about winning.
Do you feel differently about this move if they still acquire another bat (Ozuna or Castellanos)?
Yes, I would. It’s not a bad move if it is augmented with another big bat. But with this F/O’s history, that’s not likely to happen. I sure hope I’m wrong about that, though.
I’d feel better about the team, roughly the same about the move. The only thing that would make me feel a little better about the move is the acquisition of a legit lefty-masher (I’m talking someone who smokes them to the tune of close to a .900 OPS).
I wasn’t sure if the sentiment for disliking this move was that it might preclude other (bigger) additions. Like roke 1960, I really hope it doesn’t. I still think they should continue to fire the “money cannon” (hat tip to Jim) to add another bat and starting pitching. The capacity to add payroll is one of the advantages this team currently has.
It doesn’t preclude other additions from a financial standpoint, but there’s two possibilities:
Mazara is the starting RF: That’s bad!
Mazara is not the starting RF: What was the point of this?
The point would be having playable offensive options on the roster outside of the top nine guys.
Except Mazara is probably considered one of the top nine guys, and his bat is “playable” while being decidedly below average year after year.
2020 White Sox: These guys are playable
haha seriously, slogan should be we were so especially bad at filling out a full 9 spots in years passed bringing on replacement level players to start is a for sure upgrade
Sign Rendon, buy Brodie Van Wagenen a steak dinner, trade Madrigal for Syndergaard. Boom.
I am not really going to defend Mazara because, although I don’t hate him, I think this acquisition is underwhelming and disappointing, pending any future moves. But I will say, there is needless beefing/quibbling over both Mazara’s WAR, which is a nice stat but cannot simply be treated like a be-all end-all, and the ~$6M salary, which is in no way “expensive.”
Mazara isn’t a good player, but it’s only because he’s not good at hitting, fielding, or baserunning.
The Sox (allegedly) were replete with cash. And the only path to a long contention window or (gasp) a sustainable competitive franchise was via spending money on free agents to buy time to build a better farm system.
The plan 100% had to be use cash to acquire MLB assets while buying time to build a stronger farm system. Whether you believe the Sox capable of the latter or not, I think the trade talks are disconcerting as a concept unless they were taking on payroll without sacrificing prospects. We can quibble about the value of Walker, but to me it’s more that the Sox don’t have the depth from which they could risk any prospect success stories leaving their organization. It hurts a lot more in this scenario. Maybe the Sox can get a great player in a trade while giving up Madrigal or Robert or Vaughn or Kopech, but that’s robbing Peter to pay Paul. And they don’t have enough value below that threshold to land any plus players in a trade.
Spend the cash, damn it.
I don’t see a big problem with this move. I would say the player with the best bet to be a better version of the past Mazara is not Walker but Mazara. It could happen and if it doesn’t the Sox didn’t give up that much. I doubt that Walker is gonna become a star. Anyway, the Sox lineup is not a huge issue.
The REAL issue is what the heck are they gonna do about that awful starting rotation? They really need to acquire 2 excellent starting to pitchers if they’re to even sniff the playoffs.
How is that gonna happen?
My issue isn’t with the value for value comparison. It’s that they need good baseball players. All indications are that Mazara is not a good baseball player. So that still leaves them short on good baseball players. It’s making moves to make moves without some sense in how to make the team competitive.
An improvement over last year in RF wasn’t hard. My daughter has some free time over the summer and I’m sure she could shag fly balls out there. The problem is that they had a roster spot that could be filled, there were FAs that were legitimately average to above average players that only cost money that played that same position, and they’re going with this…
I see a lot of people with the “This is only bad if it’s the only move…”
I have no idea what in the history of this team would give you the impression that they don’t see this as the solution for right field. They haven’t traditionally been forward thinking on putting together useful platoons. They definitely aren’t a team that’s willing to use monetary assets to cover a position that has, in theory, a recently acquired placeholder for it (regardless of how inept the placeholder). I would put a significant amount of fake money on Mazara getting more than 120 games in RF over the next two years (barring injury). Only real question is how they cover their shortcomings in the rotation. My fear is that part of their imagined solution is meaningful time from Dylan Covey.
I saw somewhere in the flurry of Hahn quotes that 2021 is maybe the new target. I take that to mean they are going to piecemeal this thing one offseason at a time, and maybe come up with another above average player next offseason.
People who aren’t dour about this deal don’t seem to be able to feel the impending, semi-defensive post meetings press conference where Hahn defends the team’s lack of pitching improvement by saying Rome wasn’t built in a day, and defending the Mazara signing by focusing on his youth and loud tools. I can absolutely see the Sox standing pat after this.
If they do, he better not show up at Soxfest.
“Well, if we want to see if we can get the most out of a talented player like Nomar, we have to commit to getting him a certain number of at bats. That’s just the way these things work, and in doing so we couldn’t commit to giving guys like a Nick Castellanos or a Marcell Ozuna the sort of playing time they rightly deserve, so our hands were sort of bound. By circumstances completely out of our control.”
Love to hear him talk about how it takes seven years to build a house made out of straw.
White Sox ZiPS projections have just been posted at Fangraphs. Number 1 comp for Robert is Adam Jones and the number 1 comp for Madrigal is Nellie Fox.
I’m ok with Mazara. Not thrilled but his 2020 Steamer projection is pretty close to Castellanos and Kole Calhoun. However, if the Sox want to compete they need at least 1 starter. My preference is Keuchel out of the free agents and maybe a reclamation project like Wood.
Good news on that ZIPS projection and the comps. The Sox just found their top of the rotation pitcher and it’s Gavin Sheets! Guy has been wasting his time in the field and at the plate. Get him on the mound!
So what did they pitch to Grandal to get him to sign so quickly?
“Hey, we’re going all in on Zach Wheeler, but if we don’t get him, we’ve always got Dylan Covey! And who needs Nicholas Castellanos or Marcell Ozuna, or Mookie Betts or George Springer in 2021, when we could get Nomar Mazara a year earlier!”
The pitch was either full of lies, or they are not done yet. I’m hoping it’s the latter.
I’m guessing their pitch was:
“Here’s a lot of money. Whatever dollar value you place on things like team quality and location, we’ll exceed everyone else’s offer by more than that.”
It’s strange that it took them so long to figure that pitch out and stranger still that they have seemingly forgot it already.
This reminds me Yolmer non-tendering.
Anyways, here I am hoping Mazara will be part of a package Hahn is planning to trade to get us a real outfielder, maybe Marte.