White Sox pants Rowland-Smith

If nobody else is going to use that headline, I will.
I had a busy day, so a brief poll will have to do. If this report is true, would you trade six years of Daniel Hudson for two months (and maybe October) of Adam Dunn:
[polldaddy poll=”3534936″] Also, Omar Vizquel broke the party line, saying that he thinks a move needs to be made. Then again, he’s been playing for 22 years, and doesn’t have a ring.
Tomorrow night, I’ll run down what was learned from a conference call with White Sox minor league hitting coordinator Jeff Manto, and pitching coordinator Kirk Champion.
******************************
Minor league roundup:

  • Louisville 19, Charlotte 6
    • Tyler Flowers went 1-for-4 with an RBI and a strikeout.
    • Stefan Gartrell was 1-for-3 with a walk, strikeout and two runs scored.
  • Kinston 8, Winston-Salem 1
    • Nathan Jones had a nice night: 6 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 3 K.
    • Jon Gilmore was 1-for-4 with a strikeout and his 30th error.
    • Jose Martinez 0-for-3 with a walk, and threw out a runner at home.
    • Brandon Short was 0-for-4 with K.
  • Kannapolis 12, Asheville 2
    • Nick Ciolli homered, doubled twice and drove in five in five ABs.
    • Kyle Colligan was 1-for-4 with a homer, sac fly and three RBI.
    • Tyler Saladino went 3-for-45 with a double and two RBI.
  • Great Falls 10, Idaho Falls 1
    • Andy Wilkins went 3-for-5 with a homer, three RBI and a strikeout.
    • Ross Wilson singled, walked and struck out over five PAs.
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Jim Margalus
Jim Margalus

Writing about the White Sox for a 16th season, first here, then at South Side Sox, and now here again. Let’s talk curling.

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fustercluck

“I think we need to add something,” Vizquel said before Tuesday’s game. “If it’s not another pitcher [Hudson looks up], probably it’s another hitter [Kotsay looks up].”
In other news, the players sacrificed Kotsay’s bats before the game, but the trap didn’t work. He was supposed to throw himself in the fire, too.

knoxfire30

Hudson&Danks DONE in a heartbeat
Hudson&Morel Done in a heartbeat
Hudson&Flowers begrudging probably pull it off last minute if I cant find anything else.
With Rios, Pierre, Quentin around for 2011, Mitchell back healthy, and the possibility of even using Teahen in the outfield, and some of our better lower level prospects being outfielders Jordan Danks is expendable. Throw in the guy has a hole in his swing the size of the grand canyon and this is a 1 for 1 deal.
I like Morel but, Teahen again is blocking him, along with Omar Vizquel (maybe he comes back next year?), Viciedo, and even if Beckham had to he could move back to third. Plus I dont like the idea of a no pop third basemen at the cell.
Flowers, it would hurt to lose the catcher of the future with AJ in a contract year, and really not producing. But, Flowers is a 25 year old prospect now with a spotty swing that produces lots of strikeouts and ok defense that varies his effectiveness depending on who you ask. Plus is it really gonna be that hard to find someone to catch next year that can hit 240 with a 290 obp if Flowers is traded and AJ doesnt resign???
Im ready to start dealing, that twins team is starting to swing the bats, they currently dont have enough pitching to scare me but they make one move for an Oswalt, Lilly, or whoever and that rotation immediately looks a lot better.

Shinons

I voted unconvincing thumbs up. I agree with most of the above – I’m a bit more hopeful that this year is an aberration for Flowers, but don’t argue the point against him. I don’t think Danks is ever going to surpass the Brian Anderson quality of big leaguer, and Morel exists in our farm for deals like this.
The only quibble I have is regarding the Twins. They’re going up against four cupcakes in a row. We’re going to see if they’re legit starting next week and I think with Morneau out and Mauer hurting that they’ll sink (though I certainly know better than to count them out). It’s just that if we make this move it’s gotta be to win the World Series, not win a weak division and get swept in the first round.

bigfun

“not win a weak division and get swept in the first round”
Then maybe this means we shouldn’t make a move, because this is really likely to happen. The AL Central winner will have to play the Yankees (probably), who can hide the weak back end of their rotation in a short series. Look what happened to the AL Central winners in 2008 and 2009.

soxfan1

No way would I trade Hudson + anybody for 2 months of Adam Dunn. Pitching wins titles not home run hitters who strike out half the time (see White Sox 2005). Dunn is a cow in the OF and a poor 1B-man. Who needs another DH??
Besides we will need Hudson in 2011. Who knows if Peavy & Garcia come back at full strength?? I want to see the Sox contend for years not just in 2010.

knoxfire30

You can only win the 2010 division, pennant, or world series, in 2010. Worrying about 2011 isnt a priority to the extent that it should prevent a trade that puts us in the postseason this year. Its Dunn, plus 2 first round picks, and thats worth Hudson when it comes to a chance at a ring. All you have to do is get in!

bigfun

The White Sox still have a really weak system and fixing it is the only thing that will ever make them year-on-year contenders rather than the boom/bust club they have been over the past five years. So I am an unconvincing thumbs down.
That said, I would begrudgingly only dislike, not hate, Hudson + Danks/Morel. I don’t think the Nationals would want Morel, though. They’re pretty set at third base.
Anything Hudson + Flowers or more I hate. Just puts them deeper in a hole and dooms them to more years signing loads of Kotsays and Teahens because there’s nothing in-house to fill those needs at cost.

ceverettsdinosaurs

I don’t understand how people can justify trading Hudson. Who is going to be our 5th starter. Torres probably can’t cut it, which leaves us no other options. To me, improving one part of the team at the direct expense of another part is not justified, especially with the difference in contracts. If we’re going to get him it needs to be for prospects that haven’t reached the majors…Flowers, Morel, Danks, etc., and if that isn’t good enough, let the Nationals collect their picks and say good riddance.

ricksch

Agree 1000%. We will regret trading Hudson sooner than later. We have ZERO pitching on the farm and will need two starters next year when Freddy hangs it up. Dunn guarantees nothing and isn’t someone we’d consider long term. Seriously, I think Dunn is a cow (thanks soxfan1) and won’t do much of anything for us.

Shinons

Eh, how much do you think it would cost to get Edwin Jackson? Kenny could land him for me and a player to be named later.

blacksox56

he may be a cow but he helps solidify the line up. and i truly think he’ll stay if we get him, because a) the sox can pay him money and b) he can dh and not have to be forced to play the OF or 1B. And worse he leaves, the sox pick up compensation picks for him. Can’t hurt. I wonder if Sale is a better option to trade than Hudson though, wonder if Nationals would consider that.

ceverettsdinosaurs

Sale cannot be traded this year. Draft picks cannot be traded until at least 1 year after they are drafted.
Also, Dunn has publicly said he doesn’t want to DH and prefers to play the field. So, he would not be “forced” to play the field, because that is actually his preference. It’s his teams that want him to DH because what he brings with his bat, he negates with his glove.

blacksox56

$ talks though and so does wins. in the end he’ll have to play in the AL because no NL team will want him, especially because he’s only getting slower with age. Send them Flowers, Danks and a player to be named later (a.k.a. Sale).

blacksox56

If they’d take Sale that is…I like our pick but if he can be sacrificed for Dunn without forcing the Sox to give up Hudson, I say that’s win, win for the Sox

bigfun

Players to be named later must be moved within six months, so Sale can’t be traded until the winter.

blacksox56

oh ok, well that nixes that idea…lol

ceverettsdinosaurs

EDIT: By difference in contracts, I mean difference in service time (6 years v. 2 months) not necessarily difference in monetary amount this year. I’m sure the difference in gate receipts from the stretch run and playoffs (if applicable) would pay for the remainder of Dunn’s contract this year.

duke

I’m with you as well. I don’t get how trading Hudson for Dunn makes us better THIS year. I mean, I understand in theory, but that’s ignoring the fact that trading Hudson means we have no 5th starter, and if Garcia continues to falter we’re out a 4th starter, too. You might make it through a pennant race with 3 good starters and one okay start every time through 4/5 (which is what we’re doing now, sort of) but you won’t make it with 3.5 starters. I don’t care how good Dunn is, I don’t think he’s making our offense that good. So, I say no.

fustercluck

I’m a begrudging thumbs-up, excluding Flowers from the deal. I’d like to believe Hudson could be a cheap rotation stalwart if the Sox keep him. I’d also like to believe they can cultivate another replacement-level pitcher (or better) if they deal him.
Let’s not forget that after they get Dunn Kenny’s going to glamour him into re-signing as the DH (doubling his value!). And Ozzie might back off his anti-strikeout stance for a DH that can spot start at LF/1B. Oh, and hit.

ricksch

I don’t think Dunn works long term unless you’re willing to say goodbye to Konerko, Quentin or both. If either Paulie or Quentin are still on the squad, they should be DH-ing. We also have the unmoveable Mark Teahen, who can at least hit a little from the left side but is a HORROR SHOW in the field. The problem with the Sox is that they have too many guys who can hit but are a liability in the field. (Add Viciedo to this list.) We don’t need another. Look at the difference Vizquel’s glove makes to this team. Let’s not become a team full of meatballs again.

bigfun

Konerko still plays decent defense and probably has a few more years at first in him.

ricksch

Paulie’s 35 next year. If you sign him, I think you want to protect his health and have him DH a chunk. Konerko’s been a rock for us, but he’s not exactly a great athlete.
Quentin’s a DH. Viciedo’s a DH. Teahen’s a DH. How many more “no glove” guys do we need? Dunn wants to play the field but he sucks at it. That’s wonderful! Dunn MAY help us for two months (I doubt it.) but beyond that he’s the exact opposite of the sort of player we need.

bigfun

DHing him periodically is fine. Just saying he won’t need to be a full-time DH in the sense that Thome did by the same age.
Viciedo deserves a shot at 1B before he’s consigned to the DH. And Konerko’s contract is up, so worrying about where he will play in 2011 probably isn’t too high on the White Sox to-do list.

ricksch

I think they’ll want to keep Paulie and may even extend him before the season’s over. I was watching the Pads-Dodgers last night and noticed Konerko has a better stat line than the much-ballyhooed Adrian Gonzalez — and he’s done it in the real league, not the sorry-assed NL.
You know Konerko will give us a hometown discount, so two more years of Paulie is definately in the cards. You don’t address the brittle Carlos Quentin, who sure as hell SHOULD be a full-time DH. Nor do you mention Teahen, who will probably fall into the DH slot this year if no deal is made for a hitter. Again, a logjam at DH is what I’d like to avoid. So paying one-dimensional Dunn a shitload of money to be one of four or five potential DHs on the team strikes me as absurd. Viciedo will get his shot at first, but why wish and hope for a guy who, at best, is only ever going to be mediocre. Viciedo has a lot to learn and needs to play first in AAA for AT LEAST a year.

bigfun

Gonzalez also plays his home games in the worst hitter’s park in baseball. I agree Konerko is doing a great job this year, though.
I don’t mind bringing back Konerko but I hope they wait and see how the market goes this offseason – they rushed last offseason and it really hurt them. Extending him before the end of the season seems pretty pointless.
Doesn’t really matter what should happen – Quentin is probably going to stay in right field most of the time and Teahen will keep getting plenty of time at third (probably semi-platooned) because Ozzie and Kenny don’t defensively optimize their teams.
I’m against signing Dunn too so I’m not sure what you’re taking issue with here.

ricksch

Not taking issue, just want to understand the logic.
At any rate, I thought you said you’d be willing to trade Hudson for Dunn? To me, that’s an even bigger mistake than offering Dunn a contract should we get him.
If Quentin keeps playing right, he’ll weaken us defensively and eventually he’ll get hurt again. I’m sure Kenny will address that by next season. Quentin gets a few starts in the field to spell the everyday guy but that’s it. If Teahen gets lots of reps at 3rd, we are a LOSING TEAM. I think it’s fair to say that aside from our starters coming around, the defense on the right side of the infield is what’s been winning games. I just don’t want to go back to having the worst defense in the league like last year.

bigfun

“At any rate, I thought you said you’d be willing to trade Hudson for Dunn?”
Check out my 10:22 a.m. comment on this post. Basically, I am not in favor of a Dunn trade.
“I’m sure Kenny will address that by next season.”
Why are you sure? The club that not only tolerated but extended Jermaine Dye for right field has shown little indication that they realize Quentin is a bad fielder. Guillen basically said he’s too crazy to DH. I think they’ll continue to give him more starts in the outfield than at DH, unfortunately.

ricksch

You said “begrudgingly only dislike” trading Hudson — that sounds like you’d be willing to part with him — though it wouldn’t thrill you. It surprised me that you’d be willing to trade Hudson, given the fact you often stress the importance of the Sox bringing up their own and trying to build a decent farm system. Trading Hudson means we then have to trade more prospects (of the very few we have) to replace him.
Reason I think Kenny will address the Quentin situation is that unlike Dye, Quentin gets hurt if a stiff wind rolls by and he’s only, what, 28-29? Either you protect your investment or you get rid of it. Add to that he’s one shitty fielder and what are the options? If Quentin’s too crazed to sit on the bench and wait for his DH turn, he should either start taking Ritalin or get out of baseball.
At this point, I think we need a pitcher more than a hitter, as Teahen at least will be an upgrade over Kotsay in the DH spot.

bigfun

Not sure I understand your interpretation of my comment. Dislike = not in favor of it. I’m in favor of keeping him.
I said I was less strongly against keeping him because I believe there is a lot of value in reaching the playoffs, and Dunn’s comp picks could soften the loss. But my main preference is that the Sox do it without giving up any major pieces, which would mean someone besides Dunn.
I hope you’re right about Quentin but I would still bet on him getting more starts in the outfield.

therestoomuchlove

Honestly I would have loved a Hudson and Danks/Morel for Dunn deal before Peavy went down, but since Hudson was our insurance for Freddy, I’d hate to force Kenny’s hand if something goes wrong later and we have to bring in an overpriced replacement and/or scrub to fill innings. Having him as a rental bring back two draft picks is great, since we have started to draft a bit better it seems as well. On the off chance that they could sign him at a similar salary to DH, they could let AJ, Kotsay, and maybe even Bobby walk to allot that money to Dunn. Flowers might not be a great option, but he would be a cheap option and offensively can’t be much worse than AJ this year–bat him eighth, right before Pierre.

Buehrlesque

Best Headline Ever!

soxexile

I wouldn’t do Hudson for Dunn straight up. If we lose a pitcher now, wr’re looking at Torres, and who knows how well Freddy holds up? I also agree that we shouldn’t further deplete our farm system unless this trade locks up a playoff spot, or guarantees a quality player for some years to come. Dunn isn’t that big an addition, and he’s only a brief rental. I say we offer less, even if that means we may not get him.

mechanicalturk

Late to the party thought: I wonder if someone like Jake Westbrook would be a good addition should Freddy or Hudson show some serious cracks in their next starts. Cleveland is clearly selling and has no qualms about going inside the division. Carmona looks a bit better to me, with more team control and a nicer contract, but Westbrook would probably be a lot cheaper, prospect-wise. I think we could probably afford to add him AND someone like Luke Scott, which would still be a nice upgrade at DH.
And another unrelated and poorly thought out thing: if we’re gonna play someone like Andruw Jones who doesn’t really hit much (ok, more bat lately but I don’t trust him) and have him there mostly for defense and baserunning, why not use someone like De Aza or, hell, even Jordan Danks. It’s not like another .300 OBP bat in the lineup would hurt THAT much and I think those guys are likely to do better with backup defense than some players we’ve seen there. I like the all SS infield (Bacon, Alexei, and Omar) and all CF outfield (Pierre, Rios, and Jones) in terms of defense and I can handle that they’re not all big bats, but I do have to wonder if there’s not a way to get more value from such a scheme using in-house stuff.
(Really unrelated: With Sergio Santos pitching and Lil’ Bridge potentially filling in at first we could manage 3 CFs and 5 SSs. And if you want to count Konerko as a catcher for the first time in a long time we can still whittle this thing down to three positions. I may be making a few stretches but I don’t care.)

bigfun

I agree with you in principal, but the difference in overall value between Jones and de Aza is probably pretty tiny so they’ll just go with the status quo. Danks is probably more like a .200 OBP bat right now.