Nomar, then no more for White Sox at Winter Meetings

Winter meetings (Josh Nelson)

Back on Nov. 12, Rick Hahn declined to delve into any specifics for any White Sox offseason plan, saying, “It’s my experience that people aren’t too interested in hearing about the labor; they want to see the baby.”

On Dec. 12, after coming away from the Winter Meetings with a right fielder who might be mediocre and nothing else while many top free agents and Tier 3 starters flew off the board, Rick Hahn discussed the labor. Or maybe contractions. Or maybe what he thought were contractions, but turned out to be gas.

“We made progress on a handful of fronts,’’ Hahn said. “The pitching need is the one that’s most prominent right now. We’ve had productive conversations with agents and with other teams about potential trade fits, and we’ll just have to see how quickly we’re able to come to a meeting of the minds there.”

There’s only so much Hahn can say during these barren times, and he probably feels like these media availabilities are a necessary evil because he gets criticized when he ducks them, so I’d prefer not to talk about his talking. By and large, he’s either going to sound like he needs to call his pastor when he even thinks about signing a free agent whose aging curve might not perfectly align with the White Sox’s purported window of contention, or he’s going to continue to qualify his excitement until the life is drained from its eyes (“We are impatient about getting to that most rewarding stage of this rebuild when we are ready to win”).

That said, I’m going to leave these out there for citing later. One suggests he’s occupying a different reality:

“But I would hope after all this time that people understand our approach tends to err on the side of being aggressive.”

Manny Machado, Bryce Harper, Eloy Jiménez, Luis Robert, Nick Madrigal and thousands of others beg to differ. Also, Hahn’s defense of “the money will be spent” quote is a Lionel Hutz-grade bait-and-switch:

“The point of that comment was there’s other ways for us to allocate this money, and it’s going to be allocated toward player acquisitions,” Hahn said Wednesday. “You could argue some of it went to (Yasmani) Grandal, you could argue some of it went to the Eloy (Jiménez) extension or re-signing (José) Abreu or whatever we have coming down the pipe next.”

“Some days I think you’re never going to propose to me.”
“Trust me, the money will be spent.”
[18 months later]
“You think you’re crying now, imagine if I didn’t pay the water bill.”

* * * * * * * * *

At least outsiders share our general assessment of the Nomar Mazara trade, in that the White Sox paid an acceptable price for an OK change-of-scenery candidate, even if he doesn’t offer much in the way of the projectable improvement the club needs.

Over at FanGraphs, Eric Longenhagen said that while Mazara has disappointed lots of observers — himself included — he called it a “sensible, bird-in-the-hand trade for Rick Hahn and company.”

Keith Law didn’t really think much of either side of the trade, saying Mazara’s approach ran its course in Texas, but Steele Walker has the makings of a tweener.

Speaking of Mazara’s approach, Levi Weaver at The Athletic published a postmortem assessing the stagnation in Texas.

The assessment I got from sources in the Rangers org was that [Mazara] was very good at preparing for the day while lacking a bit on the preparation for the season.

To explain further, it’s one thing to prepare for a game when you get to the ballpark — to research the opposing starter, his arsenal and how to beat the opponent — and another altogether to prepare for a season. The former is reactive, and the latter is proactive. Some officials in the Rangers organization believed that while Mazara had good short-term foresight and was willing to take coaching in that way, he never truly bought into the organization’s vision for the long-term things that could make him better.

* * * * * * * * *

Speaking of postmortems in The Athletic, Eno Sarris talked to Matt Lisle about how his one-year run as the freshly minted hitting analytics instructor with the White Sox never got off the ground:

“We weren’t sure what my title was going to be,” said Matt Lisle, who was with the White Sox this past season and is currently coaching softball at Fresno State University. “First it was possibly director of hitting development. Then possibly assistant hitting coordinator, but somehow it got to be hitting analytics instructor. I know that we were trying to find a title that was more in line with the coordinator than above it.

“When spring training came, I gave a presentation to all the coaches on what I’d be doing, but it wasn’t communicated very clearly to them what my role was, and to be honest, the White Sox didn’t fully know what I was going to do. My role changed several times throughout the season as we tried to find the best fit. I think the challenge in Chicago was a difficult one, in trying to find a way to balance and slowly introduce ‘new school’ hitting techniques that included things like the use of K-Vest and implementing changes to hitting swings with focuses on things like exit velocity and attack angle into a veteran coaching staff and organization that may not have been ready for it.”

When I called the White Sox baseball’s BlackBerry, this is what I was getting at. A fabled organization like the Yankees can retool its entire organizational coaching structure while winning because the future demands it, while the White Sox just can’t get on top of the structural challenges and technological shortcomings that all the accessories, firmware upgrades and rebrandings in the world won’t fix. At least the Twins staff got raided by other teams, so both failure and success means having to hire twice.

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knoxfire30

The money will be spent spin is one for the freaking record books, holy cow!

Jerry Reinsdorf is making David Samson into a truth teller. Let that sink in.

Here we are by my count short 2 viable starting pitchers, at least 1 bullpen arm, a dh, and a platoon option for rf. Thats a pretty sizable list for a team trying to contend in 2020.

Without major acquisitions I see the sox different levels of behind the Yankees, Redsox, Rays, Indians, Twins, Astros, A’s, and Angels. Not exactly a team that looks like a contender buried behind 8 of 15 AL teams.

35Shields

Right now, Fangraphs projects the Sox to finish 78-84, based on Steamer. The Indians are projected for 88 wins and the Twins for 85.

The Sox probably need at least 7 more wins to be competitive for a playoff spot. Their options to fill that are becoming increasingly limited.

asinwreck

This column would be a eulogy for the Williams-Hahn front office if there were any consequences for past performance.

The Minnesota Twins hired Thad Levine to rebuild that organization in November of 2016, four months after Hahn mused that the Sox were “mired in mediocrity,” signalling the start of the rebuild. Look at what the two organizations have done in the past three years. One has established itself as one of the cutting-edge adopters of analytics and managed to build a 100-game winning division champion on a mid-market budget. The other has Lionel Hutz blathering about being aggressive while making the same mistakes that got them stuck in the mire.

The question to ask Hahn at SoxFest is “why are you still here?”

roke1960

Yes, the Sox still need to add 4-5 players (2 starters, rf platoon against lefties, solid DH bat, maybe another reliever). Hahn has 42 days before Soxfest to fill those needs- and he will probably have to do it sooner with all the movement that has happened so far this winter. There will be some angry, frustrated, impatient, (fill in your descriptive adjective) fans who will have a ton of questions for Hahn. And he won’t be able to use the excuse he used last year for Machado/Harper (we’re still working on getting them), because all the big prizes are gone already. “Why are you still here?” would be a good first question.

Hulksmash

And this was part of the point I was trying to make yesterday (poorly, likely). I already feel them excusing away not getting Baum, Ryu, or Keuchel. I agree, none of them or top shelf pitchers. But, even if they were to splash and pay any of them $20 mil/per (let’s just say), they’d still be, what, $30 million below league average payroll? Or thereabout?

“The money will be spent. But…uh…we already spent some on Eloy, and that one free agent, and, well…”

Like you say, Roke–what we’re all saying. It’s the same lines, the same double talk, the same everything.

I’m ready to be proven wrong. But after they lost out on Wheeler, I felt that shift back to the old ways almost immediately. They were almost relieved, probably. Because there’s nothing the Sox front office likes better than to say “hey, we tried,” and pass the buck on something or someone else. And Wheeler served that up to them on a platter.

hitlesswonder

Ryu is coming of a 5 WAR season and said he want a 3 or 4 year contract. The Sox should be offering him the exact same deal they offered Wheeler. I know…he’s 32 with an injury history but he has significantly more promise than any FA SP left out there.

The Sox could go cheap with the other SP slot (maybe Wood?) or even just sign some relievers and roll opener-style for the 5th starter slot till Kopech is ready. That would not be unreasonable…given that they still need a DH and platoon partner for Mazara….

Neat_on_the_rocks

Ryu will be entering his age 33 season. Wheeler, 29. Ryu has an overwhelming stretch of injuries including his 2 years he missed as well as huge chunks of sesaon After those two years. Wheeler missed his two years but has now put up back to back strong full seasons.

Ryu was better than Wheeler last year, but there is not a snowballs chance in hell that he should be getting a deal with as many years as Wheeler. 3/75 is the max for him IMO.

Eagle Bones

I think the main point was, pivot to Ryu and do what needs to be done to get him to sign (contract be damned). I would tend to agree with that.

MrTopaz

I think pnoles was saying on Twitter that this is where their passivity last winter really bites them in the ass, and I agree. That’s a lot of positions that need to be filled in a short period of time, and it didn’t have to be this way.

roke1960

There are at least valid excuses for not getting the top pitchers this year. The Yanks were not going to be outbid for Cole, Strasburg really just wanted to stay in DC, Wheeler took less money to stay near his wife’s home. But there is literally no excuse for passing on the two guys last year. And had they signed either Harper or Machado, the heavy lifting on offense would have been done. Both were just waiting for one team to give them what they wanted (Machado, $300M guaranteed, Harper, more than Stanton’s total contract), and they went to the first team that offered that. That the Sox didn’t come away with one of those two is incredible, and made this offseason that much harder. It’s so much easier to compete with the Padres and Phillies, than with the Yankees, Angels and Dodgers. And as a result, we may end up with more average or worse fillers. Shame on you, Rick and Jerry.

Now prove us wrong and make a blockbuster trade for a real stud, and/or sign two of Ryu, Bumgarner, Keuchel, Ozuna or Castellanos, and we’ll celebrate at Soxfest. Otherwise, it’s pitchfork time.

Neat_on_the_rocks

Its still incredible to me that they ended up barely even pursuing Bryce Harper. He fits every single need that your roster had last year and has been amplified this year. OBP, Lefty Power, Right Field, young. The Stars alligned – Bryce Harper was a perfect roster fit, extremely young, the most marketable player in the league, you’ve tanked your payroll and have tons of open funds, and the monster market teams were out on him

Its STILL ridiculous to me that they didnt just take one on the chin and overpay him. It was a perfect storm for them and they just brushed it off. Bah, you’ve got me all riled up again.

NDSox12

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Exactly how I feel. Also, no matter what he says now, I really don’t think Harper wanted to go to Philly and would have jumped at any other similar offer.

Denman

Had the Sox signed Harper or Machado or both, they would still have the same need to acquire veteran pitching. What they did or didn’t do last off-season seems largely irrelevant to the current need for pitching.

35Shields

“But what if we could find a more perfecter storm?” – Hahn, probably

marquettepark

“Why are you still here?”  SoxMachine readers should wear buttons with that “logo” at SoxFest. Idea:  A fundraising venture for Sox Machine!

roke1960

Put me down for 7!

knoxfire30

ditto haha

35Shields

If someone makes them, I will buy Kenny Williams-themed sunglasses for Soxfest-goers so that they can hide the shock in their eyes.

craigws

The Mazara trade feels remarkably Teahen-esque.

Jeff

At least Mo extension yet.

Speaking of Levine, watched him on a GM round table discussion on MLB.  Very impressive and thoughtful.  In a totally different league than Hahn.  

Like last year, my small degree of optimism is once again being crushed watching this ineptitude.   

hitlesswonder

My prediction is that by the time this offseason is over, we will long for the ineptitude of doing nothing. I fully expect at least one Shieldsesque trade is coming our way.

Because when you artificially decide you are priced out of the free agent market and can’t compete with big payroll teams like the Twins and Brewers, the only recourse left is stupid trades.

shaggy65

I had the exact same thought. Hahn’s “meeting of the minds” quote sounds a lot more like a guy settling for a lousy trade than one wowing tier 2 pitchers with big offers.

I guess I wouldn’t hate David Price, but there were so many better options out there…

Neat_on_the_rocks

Knowhing Hahn he is going to trade Stiever for Price and pay the full contract too.

Jeff

And toss in Elijah Tatis for good measure.

karkovice squad

Can’t. He’s already headed to SF for Cueto.

MrTopaz

Hahn’s card originally:

“The money will be spent.”

Hahn’s card after making the necessary alterations:

“The money? Will be spent?”

Buehrlesque

“Improving the team — No being cheap!” Oh wait, that should be “Improving the team? No, being cheap.”

Buehrlesque

Seriously though, citing the Eloy contract as evidence of “the money being spent” is insulting. Is he implying that if they signed Machado they wouldn’t have retained their pre-arb top prospect? I know to never really listen to Hahn’s meaningless lawyer word salad, but that one is a particular head-scratcher.

abehickock

I have been a White Sox fan since 1963, 56 years. During that time, they’ve made the playoffs a total of 5 times. The White Sox are not interested in fielding teams that can compete for championships on a regular basis. They will never hang with the big boys. Unfortunately, the White Sox have been extremely poor at drafting and developing young players. If you go on Baseball Reference you can look at each of their drafts and the players they’ve drafted. It will illustrate how bad their scouting and developmental system has been over the last 25 years. Because of this, they can’t even hang with teams like Tampa Bay, Oakland and Minnesota. Unless they sign Moncada, Kopech, Robert, Giolito, Vaughn, Cease and Madrigal to contracts structured similar to Eloy Jimenez’s, we won’t win anything with this group. Half of them will be gone by the time theyre ready to win.

Jeff

Me as well – it’s hard to believe how inept this franchise has truly been – never going to the post-season in back-to-back years, especially with the expanded formats. They have constantly had ownership groups with either limited funds or, like today, an apparent unwillingness to spend. It’s an industry problem that such an inept organization can field losing teams for seven straight years and still make a lot of money. Thus, nobody is held accountable and we get the same crap.

Looking at all the enlightened teams changing out their FO with new thinkers, on we go with the team that has been responsible for creating a national embarrassment.

karkovice squad

If the front office’s actions spoke for themselves–or weren’t so…counterintuitive–Rick wouldn’t tie himself into rhetorical knots about them. A problem of their own making.

It’s also cheeky to blame the fans for being mushrooms when you mostly feed them shit and keep them in the dark.

Dingo_Sox

So objectively, Lionel Hahn has addressed and filled 1 position of the 4-5 positions he outlined at the beginning of the offseason (DH, RF, 1-2 SP, & RP) and being generous 1.5 (.5 DH & .5 RF vs .5 DH & 1 RF). There is still a glaring need in the rotation that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later at the rate names are coming off the board. The next pressing thing would be to fix what’s remaining of the DH share as I don’t have faith that they will address the platoon with Mazara given their statements or track record.

andyfaust

+1 for the Lionel Hahn. The Lionel Hutz comp in this post def made me laugh and made me think about that character for the first time in ages. God I miss Phil Hartman.  

Neat_on_the_rocks

If – after signing Grandal – the Sox want to use the 26th roster spot as a chance to give Collins a prove it or lose it share of a 3 man Catcher/DH rotation, that would have been completely fine with me… IF they went out and addressed their Starting Pitching and Right Field needs more aggressively. If they went out and got Wheeler and Roark for example, I think they could have even sold me on a Mazara as a “stop gap” with upside for Right Field too.

Grandal/Wheeler/Roark/Mazara, thats an offseason I would definitely have been content with when the season ended.

But they didnt do that, they’ve not even signed one pitcher yet, and now they’re in some deep trouble.

andyfaust

The Wheeler thing was a huge kick in the nuts. I guess, for many of us, it boils down to how much you blame the Sox for missing out on him. On one hand, they offered the most money. On the other, it still wasn’t enough and perhaps they should have recognized that and gone higher.

metasox

If I fault the Sox on Wheeler it would be for seemingling not knowing he would be a tough sign. Through whatever connections or player intelligence they can tap into. Especially if the org is going to count on him as Plan A, B and C. And then subsequently not having a plan they could execute on.

andyfaust

I found it notable that the top three FA’s Cole (from LA), Rendon (a Texan), and Strasburg (San Diego), all turned down their respective suitors that would have brought them home (or near home for Rendon), to take bigger money elsewhere. Then when you get down to many people’s 4th best FA, Wheeler, he bucks the trend and takes less money to be near family (in-laws at that! yeesh!!!) Ouch.
I guess the difference is, there’s more money (whatever more Sox where offering to Wheeler (presumably less than $10M), and then there is MORE money, which is what the big three got.

Joliet Orange Sox

Or the difference could be that being close to home was more important to Wheeler (or his wife) than it was to the others. Way back when I turned down what I thought was a unbelievably good job in Pittsburgh because my wife had zero interest in the move. My colleagues at the time couldn’t believe I turned down that job (it would have been a step up in prestige and a big raise). With the hindsight of 25 years, my wife was right that living near her mom and sisters made raising our kids (who didn’t exist back then) much easier and allowed her career to continue and I have no regrets.

andyfaust

Cannot disagree Joliet, everyone’s priorities are different and change as their lives change. And I’d never fault Wheeler or you or anyone for making that choice. And I agree, once kids come in the picture, you’d never change a thing, even if you could.
There was a good movie fairly recently which addresses that exact idea called “About Time”, where a young man discovers he can in fact travel in time but he finds the gift to be less and less useful as he ages into adulthood and fatherhood. I think it’s on Netflickers. Watch it with your wife.

roke1960

That’s the idea of free agency. You are free to play where you want if the team wants you. Wheeler probably had a $ amount that he wanted the Phillies, Mets or Yankees to meet, and once they did, he signed.

Denman

It’s not clear that “more money” was the deciding factor in any of those cases. True, in each case, the player signed with the team that reportedly made the highest offer but that doesn’t prove that MORE money was why they signed.

Denman

From what I’ve read, team Wheeler was initially unsure that they’d get the $100MM/5years that they sought. Only after several teams proved willing to meet that level of contract did Wheeler and his fiancee realize they could get the contract he wanted and still stay on the east coast. Wheeler’s case illustrates that while more money might be the deciding factor with lower 2nd tier or 3rd tier free agents; top tier talent get such big dollar offers from competing teams that the dollar amount is less likely to be the crucial factor.

itaita

Mazara had good short-term foresight and was willing to take coaching in that way, he never truly bought into the organization’s vision for the long-term things that could make him better.

You see. This Mazara trade is perfect for the Sox. Since they don’t have a long term plan either this wont be a problem!

Take that doomers.

andyfaust

Haha. Very good. They are made for each other.

SonOfCron

Hahn, from the Fegan Athletic article:

“But again we talked about this yesterday — there’s a difference between being aggressive when you are in your window and you have a chance to win a championship immediately and it’s entirely different to be aggressive and try to force that window open when you are not real sure exactly when it’s going to come together.”

It’s almost like he doesn’t understand that aggressively adding quality players DOES actually force the window open. This is perhaps the most damning quote from the entire Athletic article, because it indicates to me that he has no idea when he thinks the team might be competitive, he just knows a) it’s not now, and b) he’s not going to commit real money to it until it is.

HallofFrank

It does seem like the Sox FO views this offseason as a soft push forward to set the Sox up for next year. 

Other than just being cheap, it’s just so hard to see why they wouldn’t commit to 2020. At this point, they are a good RF and a good SP (plus a couple lesser signings) away from being a legitimate threat to win the AL Central. Ryu and Castellanos would make them a good team in 2020, and further their goal of being a great one in 2021 and 2022 as well. They also shouldn’t financially handicap them from retaining the young talent they already have on hand. 

Neat_on_the_rocks

Hot take coming in, would anyone be opposed to giving Ryu a weird 2 year/60 million dollar contract or something?

If the Sox insist on having to be creative to get signings done, than go ahead and get creative. If its having to pay veterans fair salaries when they’re paying their core more fair arbitration numbers that is the problem — then overpay somebody for a year or two on a crazy AAV. Ryu is exactly the type of guy that would almost certainly consider a weird deal like that.

mikeyb

I would be on board with this for sure, so long as they finished rounding out the roster for THIS season to be competitive. Just getting Ryu doesn’t get them there. But yeah, a 2 year deal for him would actually be my ideal scenario.

Neat_on_the_rocks

This exact Quote is what Drove me up the wall yesterday. Hahn has been the GM for 7 seasons. If the window is not open yet after you had a huge head start on the rebuild trading three premier contracts – whose fault is that Hahn?

If the window is not open yet, that is your fault, and you SHOULD be trying to force it open.

dwjm3

He continues to act like you can just set the date when you become a contender. The reality is Giolito and Moncada’s clock are already ticking. The window is now whether Hahn likes it or not.

lil jimmy

There’s a way to deal with the ticking clock. Extend them. Problem solved.

Right Size Wrong Shape

I don’t know why they would take a team friendly extension when they see the contracts being given out this offseason.

lil jimmy

It need not be “team friendly” Just fair.

As Cirensica

Translation: We will aggressively add quality players when we are winning and we don’t have to [add quality players].

Is this guy a genius or what?

Jeff

The University of Michigan just called Hahn – they want his diploma back. This goodf belongs in politics. Jesus.

abehickock

I believe they do understand, they just don’t operate the way other, more successful franchises operate. The Yankees won over 100 games this year and now they have Gerrit Cole. The White Sox will never sign a player of that magnitude. I think Reinsdorf believes that White Sox fans do not support the team enough at the gate to justify paying the amount needed to sign the greater players.

roke1960

In reality, the product Reinsdorf puts out there does not justify having great attendance. If you spend it, they will come.

abehickock

I agree. That’s why I don’t waste my money going to White Sox games.

egib52

I only went to one game this year, and had it not been my father’s birthday I would not have gone to any. Once they punted on last offseason I decided I was punting on last season.

patrick

I used to put a lot of effort into watching this team, but they’ve been unwatchable for way too long. Now I listen to SoxMachine podcasts and read the blogs. Haven’t watched a game in years. Won’t even think to make a trip to Chicago to see the team. Haven’t bought any sort of merchandise since my Beckham jersey (yikes…).

If they want to blame the fans for this they can go soak.

Eagle Bones

It’s like they don’t realize free agency is a thing now and some of these guys will be leaving the team in a few years. They talk like they can just wait around for this to happen.

patrick

I think this is the third year in a row he has said something to this effect…

It’s really convenient to avoid spending during the open window when you don’t get off your ass and open the damn window.

roke1960

And yet, he keeps his job thru 7 losing seasons. What a great gig.

lastof12

You can’t open a broken window…

hackwilson

Rick Hahn obviously hasn’t experienced a Cesarean section.

Mazara’s HR/20 power gets 180 2019 Sox @200. Improves more lift in the spring? Even better otherwise starts in AAA to get the extra team control.

So Hahn’s got offers on tables and Grandal is solo pitching lefty friends to eat Portillos.

evenyoudorn

What

Eagle Bones

Excuse me, stewardess, I speak jive.

GoGoSoxFan

I thought marijuana didn’t become legal until January 1st.

andyfaust

I wonder if the timing of the major happenings this offseason (Grandal signing, missing on Wheeler and every major SP so far, Mazara trade) were rearranged chronologically, we Sox fans would have a more positive feeling right now?
For example, if we first traded for Mazara a few weeks back, then got the bad news regarding Wheeler, et al… then signed Grandal this week instead. Would that make us more optimistic of this FO’s intentions and abilities?

Neat_on_the_rocks

It probably would, because there would be more faith that they will still make some pitching fixes. As things stand now, Its hard to trust that Hahn makes the “right” pitching additions.

andyfaust

What are the right pitching additions?

Eagle Bones

Ones that involve the best available pitchers and cost only money and/or very little prospect capital.

karkovice squad

Yeah, and not worrying about optimal or efficient. They missed that boat.

joewho112

I wonder if you reverse the order, does Grandal choose not to sign

SonOfCron

I think Grandal and his agent underestimated the market. If he had waited until the Winter Meetings, I think he gets a larger deal than what he got, and it probably doesn’t come from the Sox.

andyfaust

Good point.

MrTopaz

I’d feel better. We’re used to the Sox missing out on free agents and making head scratching, marginal moves. Getting Grandal after that would be a breath of fresh air. As it stands, we’re all freaking out at the very real possibility that this is the ’15-’16 winter redux, and to keep the Simpsons quotes going:

“Prove me wrong, kids! Prove me wrong!”

As Cirensica

Or maybe contractions. Or maybe what he thought were contractions, but turned out to be gas.

I feel that the corollary for the end of the season has been written.

roke1960

I’ve been thinking about this for awhile, because the 5/$125M to Wheeler seems so un-Sox. Last year they offered Machado a “record-setting” contract he was certain to refuse, but they said they gave it their best shot. I’m wondering when they offered Wheeler the 5/$125M. Was it after he told them he was leaning toward taking the Philly offer because he want to stay near Jersey? Then the Sox came and tried to persuade him with a few more dollars that they knew he would refuse. That would certainly fit the Sox mode of doing business with high-end free agents.

andyfaust

Where did you get the 5/$125M number? I had not heard that offer ever confirmed.

roke1960

I heard 5/$125, but maybe it was 5/$120. We know it was higher than 5/$118. My point is that they may have made that offer only after they knew he was likely to take the Philly offer. That way they could say they made the highest offer knowing that it wouldn’t be accepted, much like they did with the Machado offer last year.

Eagle Bones

I forget where I saw it, but I also saw 5/125.

karkovice squad

If the Sox aren’t beating an offer by at least 20%, they aren’t trying.

It’s becoming increasingly clear that the Sox are one of the teams that were talked about in The MVP Machine as an undesirable destination that players give unreasonable demands to drive away.

roke1960

That’s probably true, but I really wonder why Grandal signed with them so quickly?

patrick

He signed somewhat late last year and didn’t seem like he had a strong market. Maybe the market was weak again this year and he wanted the certainty?

karkovice squad

Maybe Grandal wanted to play for Ricky with Abreu, Moncada, and Robert?

His quotes also make him seem like someone who’s interested in creating change, doesn’t see challenges as a negative.

MrStealYoBase

I feel like the Lisle part is not getting enough attention.

Other teams are like the parents that send their kids to private schools with iPads in every classroom, small class sizes, plenty of opportunities for enrichment, college council omg, etc.

The White Sox are sending their kids to a decrepit and under-funded public school where kids are crammed into every room, teachers are overwhelmed and unqualified, the books are out-of-date, and extra-curriculars non-existent. Then they wonder why so few of them graduate. The only ones that do are transfers from better programs (high-end talent trades), or ones with so much innate ability the Sox can’t get in their way (top 5 draft picks, bonus limit-shattering IFAs).

karkovice squad

It confirms what we knew. It also requires a lot more work to fix than the 25-man roster does with even less likelihood they’ll do it.

NateDPT12

The White Sox’s greatest advantage right now is their considerable payroll flexibility. Any Price trade should really be about getting Benintendi or someone of similar value. Price’s contract is significantly underwater in value but if you’re the White Sox you take on as much of it as you need to to get Benintendi without giving up a significant prospect including all of it if need be.  There’s no way they’re giving up Madrigal or Vaughn for either one of these guys. 

It’s a lot of money but it’s only 3 years in length so it should be off your books by then time you’re having to pay Moncada or Giolito.  You start Benintendi in CF until Robert is up and platoon either Engel or García with Mazara in RF.  Once Robert comes up Mazara is your 26th man LH power off the bench and Benintendi slides to RF. 

You still sign Ryu/Keuchel for the rotation and sign someone to DH or rotate through the outfield ala Encarnacion/Castellanos etc.

roke1960

Agree with all your points here, Nate. It seems pretty simple.
The rotation would be Giolito, Price, Cease, Lopez/Kopech, Ryu/Keuchel. And the lineup would have Timmy, Yoan, Jose, Eloy, Grandal, Castellanos, Benintendi, Robert, Madrigal. That team could compete with the Twins. And they would add $60-70M in payroll.

What are the chances of that happening? Zero.

abehickock

I don’t think The Red Sox would put Benintendi in the deal. Maybe Chavis.

Eagle Bones

MLBTR seemed to be saying this in their Price post the other day. They don’t want to expend player assets just to move him. Sounds more like they just want to eat part of the contract.

roke1960

Yeah, I think you guys are right. I also read the Red Sox are not likely to sweeten the deal with significant young talent. So then get the Red Sox to pay it down to where you get him for 3/$60M. Then sign Keuchel or Ryu, Castellanos, Edwin and Daniel Hudson. Offseason shopping list complete.

metasox

The entire point for the BoSox is to get below the tax threshold and reset. If they are serious about doing that then they may have to add more talent than they would like. In other words, given the likely lack of suitors willing to take on a lot of dollars, it shoudn’t be an equal trade. It should be an overpay by Boston to achieve the tax benefit.

andyfaust

I agree. The red sox are the ones that signed Price to that ugly contract, they should be the ones facing the consequence of that. Any urgency and/or willingness to overpay in a trade should come from them. To take on the full price of Price (pow!), someone immediately useful would have to come along with him (someone like Benintendi makes sense) to add value on their side. If they aren’t willing to do that, then fuck’em. Walk away. They can pay Price his remaining $96M themselves and maybe clubs will learn why you don’t sign a 30 year old pitcher to a 7 year record breaking contract. Yeah, right. LIttle chance of that, I know.

zerobs

Even 3/60 is an overpay for Price since he’s not projecting for 3 WAR anymore. 3/40 would be the absolute limit, he’s a #3 starter at this point – aka expected to be league average. To let them save face I’d give them Leury Garcia (so they can cut JBJ and maybe pick him up cheap) and throw in Carson Fullmer.

NateDPT12

That may be the case which is why you’ve got to be willing to potentially absorb all of Price’s contract to get Benintendi. If you’re getting just Price then Boston eats a significant chunk of money.

Either way Vaughn and Madrigal are going nowhere.

andyfaust

Even if Boston ate half of Price’s contract in a trade, which they probably won’t, is he worth $16M a year going forward? I would argue no. He’s 34 years old and he’s averaged 125 innings a year over the last three years. For me, Boston would still have to sweeten the pot at that price. But most people would be talking about what the White Sox would have to give up to get Price at half price. F that S. That’s why I say walk away. Price is way down on my list of guys they should be exploring via trade.

NateDPT12

Price was pretty good before he went down for wrist surgery last year so it seems like if he’s healthy you’ve got a good shot to get value there.  Whether or not he’s healthy is a BIG question.  The whole idea of taking on Price to me is getting someone like Benintendi. If the Red Sox aren’t willing to make that work then absolutely walk away and let them enjoy that dead money.

karkovice squad

Hamels just got $18m. $15m per would be fine for Price.

zerobs

I upvoted but I assume Eovaldi is really the guy Boston wants to unload.

If it was Benintendi + Eovaldi + 12MM for Leury + Fullmer you can stick the overpaid Eovaldi in the pen and let him make spot starts, you get the outfielder you want, and you give Boston the ability to cut JBJ loose if they want.

andyfaust

Tsutsugo to Rays. $12M

asinwreck

That is so logical a macro could have written it.

BobbySouthSide

So how do we go about getting Dombrowski? I can’t take Hahn or KW anymore. Their time is up, they don’t know how to handle a rebuild.

dwjm3

Why would he come here and live with Jerry and his miserly ways? In fact I don’t think Dave can really even succeed with a small budget… 

joseValentinsMustache

He would be like immersion therapy for Jerry.

Soxfan2

Dombrowski needs a big budget to win, so unless he can hypnotize Jerry into spending money, he probably wouldn’t be a good fit. I really wanted us to hire Anthopolous when he was let go by the Blue Jays. He knows how to build winners without a crazy budget and has a good track record of drafting. I think Brewers assistant GM Matt Arnold is gonna be a hot name soon and would love the Sox to get him. Unfortunately, Hahn is a member of the Jerry Reinsdorf union and will never be fired. 

roke1960

We can get Dombrowski only if Jerry sells.

karkovice squad

I’d take Dombrowski’s ability to put together a 25-man roster at this point but I’d rather have someone capable of doing that and fixing at least part of the rest of the organization.

zerobs

Let’s not forget that Dombrowski was here and was purged by Hawk. Reinsdorf has been extremely conservative since that fiasco.

abehickock

Does anybody know how much authority Kenny Williams still has as far as player acquisitions? Does Hahn have to get his approval before pulling the trigger on a signing or trade?

SonOfCron

Nobody knows, and it doesn’t matter. If it helps you, just treat Hahn/Kenny/Jerry as one entity, because that’s essentially what it is.

abehickock

That dynamic doesn’t work. The Bulls have the same issue.

roke1960

Somehow, the Bulls F/O might actually be worse than the Sox.

knoxfire30

It is amazing but the bulls is worse for the simple fact the bulls spend to the cap, like 95 percent of the nba does, so them being on an equal playing field and being this bad is hilarious, kw and hahn for all their faults are given poo dick payrolls by their boss , doesnt mean they arent still terrible at their jobs just that they arent as bad as gar/pax

roke1960

Yeah, the Sox are cheap and incompetent. But the Bulls are a double dose of incompetent.

abehickock

Take a look at the White Sox draft picks for the last 20 years. Aside from Chris Sale, they’ve made about 4 all star total appearances. That’s out of roughly 800 drafted players. Nobody is held accountable. If you’re not going to be successful in going after the great players in free agency, you need to excel at drafting and developing.

Malkatraz

Hey now, the Sox have traded 2 All-Star caliber shortstops the past few years. Their scouting-eye is awesome!

joseValentinsMustache

The Bulls sold their second round pick for cash. They also brag about their scouting department being fully funded because everyone gets dual monitors. I think we talk about Hahn being out of touch but the things I hear from them is insane.

TBH though they’re pretty much the same, no free agents want to come, coaches implementing 30 yr old offensive strategies, terrible underfunded scouting/analytics departments, playing the draft lottery until you get a Jordan/Rose/Sale person and then finally investing money. Good times.

zerobs

Kenny is to the Sox as Paxson is to the Bulls. Both have their jobs for the remainder of Jerry’s life.

Dingo_Sox

This could be a faulty memory on my part but from what I remember from when it happened along with some comments from others, Kenny stepped up to mostly get away from the day to day operations of the GM position but still oversees baseball ops. Hahn takes care of the day to day but still reports of KW for baseball acquisitions and the like.

t3trr

The Sox continue to dangle the carrot. Finished second for Machado then state money will be spent. Now finished second for Wheeler and still saying they’re not finished. I guess Grandal is the current carrot so we still have a slight hint of hope that we won’t be fooled again.

vanillablue

When the Bulls signed Dwyane Wade a few years ago, I realized there was no point in being a fan as long as Paxson and Forman were in charge, since they obviously had no clue what they were doing but would never be replaced. I made a conscious decision to expect absolutely nothing on the court and treat the team as if it was nothing more than bad reality TV. I think that was the right decision – it’s certainly better to laugh at Boylen’s ridiculous press conferences and Zach LaVine chucking contested 30-footers than scream at the TV every time, and it saves money and time that I can waste elsewhere.

I’m getting more at peace with the fact that I may have to make that decision soon with the White Sox.

joseValentinsMustache

I hear ya. I have moved on from the NBA but I used to keep tabs on the Bulls just for curiosity sake. Now I can’t do it because it hurts my brain and the Sox seem like they are moving in that direction. If this keeps up, I might have to be an ‘MLB’ fan and pick a team like the Brewers or something.

I have also started watching less of the White Sox on TV and just read Sox Machine articles because it is less of a time commitment and at least Jim has the same opinions as me.

The irony is is that if they had paid for Machado or any other free agent their contract cost would most likely be more than offset by me and other fans going to games. Of course Jerry is so greedy he can only view things in terms of losing money and not in terms of growing it.

GrinnellSteve

Every time Rick opens his mouth, a puppy dies. I am so discouraged at how far behind this organization is and how little they care about rectifying it.

At Sox Fest every single question should be, “Why do you still have a job?”

fasteddy

Francisco Lindor Shipped to out the West Coast?

sausalito pale hose

Complaining about Hahn gets to a boring point. The unknown for the Sox is will they get at least 1 good solid starter. I have confidence in Cease, Lopez, Giolito; with Kopeck and Rodon returning stronger. BTW, they have plenty of time to work out trade, or acquisition for starter until the season starts. There will be many opportunities as schedules readjust at the end of Spring Training.
As far as getting on management for not delivery on Moncado and Harper; it is a blessing they they weren’t successful. In 1918 ESPN listed 20 free agents that signed 100 M contracts and above, 18 were busts. The two they named that weren’t were Lester and Scherzer. Not good odds for using financial assets for a low money-market team. As far as drafting, in the last five years Sox have done well; although, injuries have been a problem.

Mazzaro never made sense to me. They gave Avi away for nothing:

Avi 2016: batted around 340 the last two months of the Season
Avi 2017: batted 330; All Star, and second best average in 70 yrs.
Avi 2018: batted 238 3 times DL; only played 91 games. Although
he had 19 HR’s in those 90.
Avi 2019: Tampa Bay Manager “Avi was a key player to get to play-
offs.
Gave Avi away for nothing and kept a slew of unproductive players. This was a year for tanking, and after being of Sox fan for 74 years, I have a problem with Hahn’s decisions that year.

There may be good reasons for getting rid of Avi. I am not sure what those are.

I am optimistic about Sox going forward. They are not far from having one of the quality teams in baseball. I’m sure Hahn has learned from his experiences; both good bad.

Denman

I agree that “missing out” on Harper and Machado will likely workout for the best now that Moncada has so ablely performed at 3rd and given the possibility the Sox can take advantage of a friendship between Tim Anderson and Mookie Betts to give them an edge next off-season. Part of the problem with Avi was his age (he would have been hitting 30 and free agency as the team was making it’s first push at contention). Also, they opted to give the left-handed hitting Palka a shot; after a 27 HR rookie season, no one foresaw his total collapse. Additionally, I sense there may have been some tension between Avi and some other players and, perhaps, the front office as well.

 Like you, I’m very optimistic about the coming season. In spite of all the frustration expressed here, Hahn hasn’t missed out on any of his targets other than Wheeler. As you say, there’s still plenty of time to sign a couple of pitchers who will add depth to the rotation. 

metasox

and given the possibility the Sox can take advantage of a friendship between Tim Anderson and Mookie Betts to give them an edge next off-season.

Did Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso teach us nothing

Denman

Yes, use friendship to gain an edge but then pony up at least as much guaranteed money as the player says he wants. With Machado they frittered away their edge.