Guardians 8, White Sox 2: The unraveling continues

If the White Sox weren’t sufficiently humiliated from the way Tuesday’s game got away from them, they should’ve gotten their fill of embarrassment by the way this one started.

The White Sox fell behind 2-0 on a trio of plays not made by Yoán Moncada. Only the first one was truly unacceptable — with a runner on first, he waited back on a chopper by Amed Rosario, took his time to line up his throw, and ended up getting the ball to first a step late, which made Lance Lynn deal with runners on first and second with nobody out.

He then could’ve turned a fantastic 5-3 double play with the bases loaded to end the frame without a run scored, but his off-balance throw to first after stepping on third gave José Abreu an in-between hop he couldn’t handle. The error gave Josh Naylor an extra 90 feet to occupy third base, which mattered when Moncada’s sliding attempt on Andres Gimenez’s grounder only blocked the ball for an infield single.

The White Sox only trailed 2-0 at that point, but as Triston McKenzie posted easy zeroes, it felt larger. And that was eventually reaffirmed when the Guardians extended their lead to 6-0 after the top of the fourth, including a three-run third that started with Andrew Vaughn dropping a shallow Naylor fly to left after Moncada cleared the area late.

The White Sox looked completely out of it, when Lynn reacting with disgust and wandering around the infield grass instead of backing up third base or home.

It was a minor miracle the Sox weren’t shut out. Moncada of all people ensured that, answering Steven Kwan’s leadoff homer in the top of the fourth with one of his own in the bottom of that inning. The Sox added a second run in the seventh on a Gavin Sheets RBI single, but at that point, but it didn’t matter.

McKenzie, who struck out 14 White Sox without a walk his last time out, came up one short of tying that career high tonight. He fanned a baker’s dozen while only throwing 100 pitches over eight innings, because the Sox couldn’t work a single walk.

Elvis Andrus and Andrew Vaughn both struck out three times apiece, although Andrus contributed a couple of fine defensive plays to distinguish himself in one regard.

Bullet points:

*The White Sox now trail by six games, and it’s seven with the tiebreaker. Their tragic number is down to eight.

*Lynn at least went six innings to spare the bullpen, and three of his six runs allowed were unearned thanks to the two errors. It probably should’ve only been two.

Record: 76-73 | Box score | Statcast

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Jim Margalus
Jim Margalus

Writing about the White Sox for a 16th season, first here, then at South Side Sox, and now here again. Let’s talk curling.

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Dennis

Prepare to back up the truck…

dwjm3

Prepare to back up the piggie bank for Tier 3 free agents

Jerry

As Cirensica

I was reading the recap over The Athletic (James Fegan), and there are some inferences one can imagine with the words Miguel Cairo said after the game. It seemed that Cairo and Moncada had a conversation that will stay in the clubhouse. I have a strong feeling that Cairo’s words “Whoever don’t want to play, I already told them if you don’t want to be here, they can get out.” are directed to Moncada. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Leury playing 3B today.

ParisSox

This was my first thought when I first heard the quote a couple of weeks ago.

roke1960

I think the biggest question this off-season may be what to do with Moncada. He is a very talented player who seems to play in spurts. His trade value is very low and his contract is very expensive the next few years. They would really be selling low. They need someone who will light a fire under him. Obviously, that’s not Tony, and if he is still managing next year, all is lost anyway. Whoever is in charge must get him to play hard every day. He is very critical to the future success of this team. But his on and off play is unacceptable.

soxygen

I’ll just add that it is also true that Abreu has been unable or unwilling to light a fire under Moncada. That doesn’t take away from Abreu’s performance, but it does indicate that there may not be much “intangible value” to having his leadership on the roster.

BuehrleMan

Watch the first replay of Moncada’s lackadaisical play in the first inning. As soon as the ball goes into Abreu’s glove he turns his head to the right, toward the first umpire who was making the safe call. He then immediately turns back and shoots a glare at Moncada. I laughed.

You can’t blame Abreu for the way Moncada plays.

soxygen

Not blaming him, just saying that if Abreu has some intangible/leadership value then you would think that one place you would see that is in inspiring Moncada to play hard.

metasox

Maybe Abreu had a strong effect for a while but it wore off. Similar to that old point about players needing to hear fresh coaching / manager voices in the clubhouse

HallofFrank

There have been some strange drums banged on this site (like the Sox should trade TA lol). But you continually insisting Abreu isn’t a leader is probably the strangest.

soxygen

I thought your idea that we needed Joey Gallo was pretty strange 🙂

I wouldn’t have mentioned it, but you chose to get personal.

Last edited 12 days ago by soxygen
ChiSoxND12

Pretty weak that you would consider what HallofFrank said to be “personal”

Btw what HoF said: “you continually insisting that Abreu isn’t a leader is probably the strangest (drum being banged on this site)”

soxygen

There was a recent interview with a player who was asked to identify leaders in the clubhouse…and he did not name Jose…

Pretty strange to continue insisting that he is a leader.

ChiSoxND12

Stop disagreeing with me you’re getting too personal

HallofFrank

Woof, you should have checked the stats first: Gallo has a 111 wRC+ since the deadline, is an excellent defender, and could have been had for almost nothing. Sorry you think adding that player is strange!

But, like ChiSox said, what I said clearly wasn’t personal since it was about a (bad) point you were making and not about you.

BuehrleMan

Well, you said Abreu “has been unable or unwilling” to get Moncada to play better.

If you mean it when you say “unwilling” then you are absolutely blaming Abreu. There’s no other way to interpret that.

“Unable” is a bit different. I am unable to get Moncada to play better but I doubt you blame me for it. You seem to be blaming people who mention Abreu’s “intangible/leadership” skills.

I just can’t tell for certain if you simply don’t believe that the “leadership” that other people talk about actually exists or if you think Abreu doesn’t have the leadership skills that other people ascribe to him.

Buck Weaver

Agreed. There are also different leadership styles. Abreu may be the more quiet, lead by example type, and it could be that some players, like Moncada, don’t respond like that.

soxygen

Right, which would then begs the questions: if we are going to bring him back next year for his leadership, who are we expecting him to lead? Where do we think we will see that effect if not the younger guys in his own social/language cohort? Is there someone right now (say, Gavin Sheets) who is evidence of that positive influence? And what, if anything, does it mean that when Michael Kopech recently identified a number of players as leaders in the clubhouse, Jose was not one of them?

phillyd

You act like the only reason the Sox would bring him back is leadership and not the fact he is still a superb player putting up a 4 WAR season.

soxygen

You are reading that into it, and that isn’t what I am saying.

The decision to re-sign him should be based on his projections going forward, not some sense that he provides some undefined additional value that no one can really see.

soxygen

The main reason they would not bring him back is that he is not under contract.

The obvious choice is to replace him with someone already under team control, younger, and cheaper. Like a guy who should play first base and who was acquired with the #3 overall pick in the draft.

If they decide to bring Abreu back they will not have the resources to really do anything other than re-do 2022. The most likely reason they will do that is “the intangibles.” Or nostalgia, a la Paul Konerko.

He is an aging first baseman. Life catches up with those guys pretty quickly, and no projection of his performance going forward would predict him continuing this level of production. Not to say that he won’t have an additional good season in him here or there (we all thought Pujols was done!), but it isn’t likely that he’ll have multiple good years left after this one.

It’s a pretty big decision, and my guess is that a lot of “intangible” arguments will be made that the Sox should re-sign him. It seems like it is worth examining those arguments to see if there is anything to them.

soxygen

Right, which gets me back to this: if he is a leader, then we would expect to see that in the performance or effort of guys in his social/language cohort…and we haven’t seen that. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a good player, but it does indicate that we shouldn’t decide whether to bring him back on the basis of something that isn’t quantifiable, and also that isn’t evident in the numbers of other players on the team, including the players in his social/language cohort.

Also, if the reason to bring him back is for his leadership, it probably wouldn’t be leadership of the pitching staff or the non-Spanish speakers. So we really are talking about whether he will have an influence on a subset of position players who haven’t played particularly well.

We also know, from Jose himself, that he is really only focused on his own performance this year.

Last edited 12 days ago by soxygen
BuehrleMan

How do you know Moncada wouldn’t be playing even more lackadaisically if it wasn’t for Abreu’s leadership?

What you want to be quantifiable is not quantifiable.

If you don’t believe that players’ personalities and the way that they interact with each other has any bearing on their performance then just say so.

roke1960

This whole argument is personal- and completely unnecessary. Who cares which of you is right? The main question is what to do with Jose moving forward. No one questions his immeasurable contributions to the Sox over the last 9 years. No one questions that he has been the Sox best hitter this year. The main question is do you spend $15M or more on a 36-year old 1st baseman who has hit only 4 homers in the 2nd half of this year, and has been a premier singles hitter. I love what Jose has meant to the Sox for the last 9 years. He has been the brightest and sometimes only star on the team. But we have to put emotions aside and determine the best path forward for this team. There are very legitimate arguments to be made for keeping him, but also legitimate arguments for letting him walk. I will be very interested to see what the Sox decide.

soxygen

I agree with this 100%

BuehrleMan

Not sure why you chose your comment to be in response to mine. It doesn’t appear to me to be personal and I certainly haven’t done anything to make it personal. I also happen to disagree with you that it’s unnecessary.

I’m not interested in discussing what to do with Abreu. I’m trying to get someone to clarify what they are saying and also trying to get my point of view across.

roke1960

I’m sorry BuehrleMan. My response was not intended for anyone in particular. Yours was just the last comment at the time and I hit reply. Sorry.

HallofFrank

I agree that there are good arguments for each side. But answering the question, “Is Jose Abreu a good leader and/or does he have some sort of positive, intangible impact?” is clearly important moving forward.

Here’s how I think of it:

  • Jose and Vaughn will likely have similar projections over the next ~2 years.
  • Vaughn is younger; Jose has a stronger base of good performances.
  • If they let Jose walk, they can allocate his ~$19m elsewhere; if they trade Vaughn, they can plug a different hole with an excellent, young player.

All of these things make it, to my mind, roughly a tie. Here are my tiebreakers:

  • Perhaps inexplicably, Abreu continues to be extremely durable while Vaughn (apparently) has had issues keeping fresh.
  • Insofar as intangible values (like leadership) matter, I’d take the value Abreu could provide in those categories over what Vaughn provides.

I’m assuming, of course, that Vaughn could be traded for another excellent player and Abreu would take some sort of aging pay cut.

If they keep Vaughn and let Abreu walk, I’ll be just fine with that. It’s a tough call. But I think too many Sox fans have age blinders on and aren’t seeing just how good Abreu continues to be with these adjustments. After a disappointing year, it’s typically not a good start to the offseason to let your leader in position player WAR walk.

soxygen

The interesting thing is that I agree with about 70% of what you said, which just kind of reinforces what a horrible medium for communication the internet is and that it encourages people to create plausibly deniable conflict.

My thesis is that the team, or the fans, or both will view intangibles as a tie breaker. And there is no evidence from 2022 that they should. This is for multiple reasons, including that the players who would be most likely to respond to that leadership (Moncada and Robert) have played without purpose or focus for a lot of this year.

My initial response was to Roke’s comment that someone needs to light a fire under Moncada. It does not appear that Abreu has been able to do that, so there isn’t any reason we should expect him to be able to do that going forward.

We’re both fans of the same baseball team.

HallofFrank

You agreeing with 70% of that shows less about the internet and more about what kind of decision this is. Most decisions are cut and dry. It’s ones like this—with nuance and hair splitting—that are difficult. So I’m not surprised we mostly agree—but, since this decision is so close—even a little disagreement can lead to different outcomes.

However, I think you found the point of disagreement, which is where we started: should we view Jose as providing some value beyond what his stats suggest? It sounds like me (and I think most of the fanbase?) would agree that the answer is yes. You think no. And that’s fine.

But I don’t know what kind of evidence you’re looking for. It’s, by definition, intangible. You won’t—can’t, even—find it in numbers. Judging Abreu’s intangible impact by how well or poorly Robert and Moncada performed is fundamentally flawed. For one, players have bad years. If a player can’t be a leader when his teammates underperform, then no player is a leader. Find me one player that fulfills that criteria. Moncada has been trash, sure—but who’s to say Abreu didn’t have a positive impact? Or to say that Abreu didn’t have a positive impact in previous years, when he’s been generally good? For two, Robert (and Eloy) have been excellent, when healthy. It’s the “when healthy” part that they’ve struggled with. And surely we’re not laying that on Abreu’s shoulders?

soxygen

If intangible equals no evidence, then there is no evidence to support either position.

…Given that there isn’t going to be anything objective or quantifiable, we would have to look to other things that we see: the fact that the team has underperformed, Moncada has underperformed, Jose’s own statement that he isn’t worried about anyone else, Kopech not identifying Jose as a leader in the clubhouse, etc all could probably be introduced as evidence.

In any event, I reached out with an olive branch. Go Sox.

HallofFrank

If you’ll reread my response, you’ll see I didn’t say that intangible equals no evidence. But it does equal no *tangible* evidence: that is, hard data, like stats. In other words: Moncada’s ‘22 WAR isn’t going to tell you whether or not Abreu is a leader.

There is evidence that Abreu is a leader in the clubhouse—or, more importantly, that he provides some sort of positive, intangible benefits.

soxygen

Moncada is a former #1 overall prospect who has been basically replacement level this year. Last I checked, 0.9 fWAR, including 1.3 for the positional adjustment as a third baseman. Do you think he would be worse than that BUT FOR Abreu?

BuehrleMan

Either you don’t understand what I am saying or you’re willfully ignoring what I am saying. Either way I’ve had my fill.

As Cirensica

This debate has more legs that I would have expected, but I fail to see how is Moncada’s lack of motivation a problem Abreu should be able to solve, and if he can’t, then how can we conclude Abreu provides no intangibles.

To Err is Herrmann

Of course, one can avoid the Vaughn/Abreu dilemma by keeping both and trading Eloy instead. Discuss.

metasox

Motivation is the key for whoever the manager is. Because just telling players owed big money that they “can get out” doesn’t mean much. And there is also the matter of what role other players – the team leadership – has in getting everyone on the same page

Last edited 12 days ago by metasox
Augusto Barojas

If Moncada’s best is somewhere between last year and this year’s performance, he isn’t likely to be worth half what they have to pay him. He’s owed like 40M the next two years, that’s just brutal given how up and down, and injury prone he’s been. They extended him based on his 2019 season, which he hasn’t come close to duplicating.

They obviously could not find any team who would take his full contract, even if they gave him away for free. So they’re probably stuck with him. I remember laughing at the idea that he ate literally 80 twinkies a week a few years ago before the Sox got him. Humorous as that is, it’s really a red flag, and probably showcases some deep psychological issues which may be barriers to him ever playing at a very high level with any consistency. You have to be pretty messed up or just stupid to eat like that.

A shame, this rebuild just didn’t work out, and this team is just littered with substantial money next year committed to players who are not likely to be close to worth it (Moncada, Grandal, Kelly, Leury, Diekman, Lynn, etc). The rebuild is scorched earth, pretty much.

knoxfire30

Think moncada is 17.8 and 24.8 the next two seasons so yikes,

Id say lynn is worth his salary, the others yea its a disaster of wasted payroll, probably add pollock to that list.

metasox

IIANM there is an additional $5 mil to buy out the ’25 option

Augusto Barojas

Yeah, add Pollock to that list. After 2024, Moncada, Grandal, Gio, and TA will be gone. It might not be until then that they would ever do much in the FA market, if they ever do. This “window” was not going to last forever, they blew it pretty much.

Buehrlesque

Interesting note on that twinkie thing. Didn’t he also want to buy so many new cars at once that even the car dealer told him not to? Those anecdotes were all played off as funny at the time, but I wonder if ultimately there’s a level of maturity or grit or something that’s just not there with Moncada. Feels like such a meatball thing to say, but maybe there’s something to that in this case.

Augusto Barojas

I mean being purely objective, any human being that has ever eaten 80 twinkies a week on a regular basis has some real issues. Unfortunately they bet a ton on him being a valuable player, and he is not close to being worth what they are paying him. And they are screwed as a result, hence a mediocre team that can’t even hang til the last week of the season in an god awful division. His pitiful performance is one of the main reasons. I don’t get the sense that he has much of a work ethic.

Last edited 12 days ago by Augusto Barojas
As Cirensica

He wanted to have one different car for every day of the week. And I am not talking about a Monday’s Corolla, and a Wednesday’s Elantra. More like Monday’s Ferrari, Tuesday’s Range Rover, etc.

To Err is Herrmann

I agree with what people are saying about the red flags. However, Twinkies were designed to be addictive. Same with Luis Robert and pizza. Maybe the White Sox need to hire a team of chefs to deliver meals to these guys. The sad thing is that if you paid most people millions of dollars they would dine out or take in every night. These guys are living like they are in a college dorm and down to $5. It is kind of odd, but that fast & processed food is addictive.

Shingos Cheeseburgers

Ah the good old September swoon. A trademark of Sox baseball.

HallofFrank

This question is more serious than it sounds: but what should we be cheering for now: should we hope the Sox finish really strong or that they fall flat on their faces?

A strong finish shines the spotlight even brighter on the TLR debacle and makes it even harder to consider bringing him back. Plus, it gives us more hope for 2023, maybe?

A poor finish dims that TLR spotlight, but directs it on the whole organization. It’s not TLR’s fault, they just suck. Plus, it gets the Sox a better draft pick?

ParisSox

Remember that soon there will be no baseball for 5 months. Enjoy it as it is.

roke1960

Actually, there’s no baseball now. The season ended Tuesday night. I didn’t watch yesterday, but it seems as if the White Sox agree with that statement.

soxygen

Agreed.

I feel bad for Pollock insofar as he made his comments after the Tuesday game (that the team wasn’t done yet) and then, on Wednesday, a couple of his teammates came out and showed everyone that they are ready to get a head start on their off seasons.

As Cirensica

This is kinda true, I switched to re-watch The Office after 4 innings. I am already tuned out.

roke1960

The season ended Tuesday. I still followed the game on Gameday for a little while. No need to watch anymore.

GrabSomeBench

The Office? Hasn’t that been in reruns since this rebuild started. LOL

As Cirensica

It never gets old

metasox

This question is more serious than it sounds: but what should we be cheering for now

To each their own, but I choose not to worry about it. I am just going to relax

Last edited 12 days ago by metasox
HallofFrank

Well, alright, fair enough. I’m also mentally checked out and have no plans to check back in. I guess I’m recognizing that how the Sox end this season will inevitably impact the next. But, sure, I’m not going to be invested anymore.

shaggy65

I got so focused on my OPP last night that I genuinely forgot to see what happened in the actual game of the season that is technically still in progress.

BenwithVen

McKenzie had a 46% CSW tonight. That would be embarrassing for a minor league team. Laurence Holmes is right, this thing needs to be stripped to the studs.

knoxfire30

McKenzie has really got it going, borderline ace at this point, plus at 25 its nice to see a kid who is gonna come close to reaching 190-200 innings.

roke1960

The problem with that is all these players have guaranteed money. You can’t strip it to the studs. For the White Sox to be successful next year, the 1-5 hitters need to be TA, Yoan, Robert, Eloy, Vaughn. I guess you could decline TA’s option, but it is very reasonable at $12.5M. Yoan, Robert and Eloy are all under contract and none came close to playing a full season this year. Vaughn is tradeable, but then you’d have to pay Jose $15M or so to fill 1st base. These 5 players have to be good and healthy for the Sox to have any chance next year. Making Eloy permanent DH and keeping Vaughn at 1st will help keep them healthy, but the other 3 have to find a way to remain on the field. And someone needs to light a fire under the other 3, because all 3 seem to be very inconsistent. They all have all-star capabilities, but even when healthy they all seem to go through long stretches of average to below average play. That just can’t happen. Finding some good left-handed bats that are good defenders to fill the corner outfield spots is critical. The starting pitching is above average, and the bullpen can be very good. They will go into next season as the most talented team in the Central. But there must be a new GM and manager to bring out the best in what they have and properly supplement the core. If Hahn is making the decisions, we know from the last 9 years that he will fail miserably.

patrick

Are you sure they’ll be the most talented team in the ALC next year? I’d take Cleveland’s pitching staff over the Sox’s. I would take their defense also. At this point I think the offense is almost a wash. I don’t have much hope that the Sox will get elite play out of pretty much anyone in their lineup, and I think I have many more questions about their bullpen after this season than I did at the start.

I guess you could hope that many of the players return to their offensive profiles from 2020 and last year, but they really went in the wrong direction in terms of OBP and power.

I think right now they are about as talented as Cleveland (they are slightly worse offensively and about tied for pitching statistically), which feels right to me. But woof, for so so much more money.

Trooper Galactus

If the White Sox get near peak production out of Moncada, Robert, Jimenez, Grandal, Vaughn, Anderson, Giolito, Cease, Lynn, and Kopech, they’re more than a match for anybody. Problem is, their injury management blows, so they get less and less of that peak production the longer this drags on.

roke1960

I’m really anxious to see the different OPPs this fall. There are so many directions this team can go, but with the same leadership still in place, we all know which direction that will go- down.

knoxfire30

Think this is going to be the least exciting OPPs since it began. The budget likely declines they are flat stuck with so many contractual obligations and the thin farm wont allow for big moves. To me their best course of action is still just hoping for rebounds and a new manager to be the difference, if things look bleak at the midway point they need to sell off pending free agents like lynn, giolito, gravemen, kelly, grandal, etc at the deadline depending on what their value may or may not be. Probably could take offers on Hendrix too.

roke1960

I can’t do my OPP based on thinking like Jerry. If I did, every year would be the same. But I also don’t do it based on an unlimited budget- and that we can sign Judge and Rodon and offer Verlander $45M per year.

There are just so many ways the Sox can go within a limited budget. For example, they can sell low on Moncada and clear his money off the books. They can trade Giolito, Vaughn, Eloy, Graveman, Hendriks. They can resign Jose or let him walk. Or they can just run it back with what they have and hope the players respond. It will be very interesting to see the creative ideas us Sox fans come up with. And more than likely, all will be more creative than what Hahn is going to do. But the OPP is not forecasting how inept Hahn will be. It’s each of our ideas on what the Sox SHOULD do this winter. That is what I am anxious to see.

patrick

For example, they can sell low on Moncada and clear his money off the books. They can trade Giolito, Vaughn, Eloy, Graveman, Hendriks.

I mean kind of. But keep in mind it takes two to tango. They’d essentially have to eat the entire Moncada contract. Gio has extremely limited value given his production and downward trends in spin and velocity. I think you could get a couple of fliers for Eloy. Hendriks is maybe the only player that has retained value enough to get a return.

Trooper Galactus

Yeah, how much of Moncada’s money really comes off the books, and do you save enough to get anybody decent to replace him that would be better than just hoping he rounds back to his previous form? That’s really the case for a lot of these guys, and as usual they’ll probably just hope for better health and maybe a bit of a morale boost from Tony (presumably) not being in the dugout.

roke1960

I’m betting a team like the Dodgers would be all over Moncada if he was available. The talent is there. It’s getting him to play hard consistently. The Sox are so dysfunctional and there is no accountability throughout the entire organization. Players don’t have to play hard to remain in the lineup for the Sox. The GM can be completely incompetent and keep his job for 9 years. The manager can make dumb move after dumb move and keep his job. If Moncada went to a team that demanded consistent effort every day, he could be a perennial all-star. There are probably a dozen or more teams that fit that bill.

upnorthsox

I could live with a year of Burger if we could get Michael Busch back for Moncada.

charlie

Don’t mistake perceived lack of effort for lack of talent. He’s not a good hitter.

upnorthsox

I don’t think so. You may not be able to get anything back for him but you’ll be able to dump his contract. The bigger question with Moncada is who takes his place and what does that cost? There’s nobody at 3rd for FA (which helps in trading Moncada).

HallofFrank

I think it’ll be the most exciting—but also most depressing—OPP since it began. The things you mention make it depressing, because of what it reflects about reality.

But it’ll be an exciting—as in generally intriguing and interesting—OPP because the plans should be vastly different. Pretty much every year, the plans have looked very similar: sign some combo of a good 2B, RF, and SP, plus maybe an interesting trade or two. This year, I suspect we’ll have some plans run it back with modest upgrades and others tear it all down—and everything in between. For that reason, I’m looking forward to this OPP more than others. But, like you point, the reality leading to that possibility is depressing.

knoxfire30

we literally still need to sign a good 2nd, rf, and sp lol

As Cirensica

We have enough 2B in the farm, and we have Colas for one of the corner outfield. What this team needs is to sign a new GM. There has been a black hole there that we have never been able to filled for almost a decade.

patrick

Nah I need them to sign players that have actually proven success. No more relying on guys who haven’t set foot in GRF to be mainstays if not superstars to prop up the duds they have elsewhere. Colas isn’t Vaughn in many ways, but I think Vaughn really could have benefit from some time in Charlotte rather than just assume he is going to be a useful bat (and somehow a glove in a spot he’s never played).

knoxfire30

No realistic world series contender should start an off season on the assumption someone from the minors is going to take a starting spot.

Trooper Galactus

Especially not one who is just starting to figure out AAA pitching now.

patrick

Not to be that guy, but the White Sox are not a legitimate World Series contender. And haven’t been since the All Star break last year.

upnorthsox

They are not a WS contender because they assumed 2 1B could play the OF and assumed that 2 other OF could stay healthy. Even just Starling Marte would’ve made a big difference. Add in Jeff McNeil and what do you have? The 2022 Mets?

upnorthsox

This was where things really went wrong for Hahn, assuming his recent draftee could make the jump to the bigs and be the DH based on little minor league experience instead of signing Schwarber which was like a gift from the Cubs that he was even available was just not realistic and left the team shorthanded when the inevitable injuries happened.

HallofFrank

Yup haha. I think it goes without saying at this point that the Sox FO hasn’t consulted the Sox Machine OPP for cues for offseason moves.

ForsterFTOG

Shows glimpses of five tools and physicality/athleticism beyond his years. There’s a natural feel for the game and looseness in certain aspects. The issue is in-game translation and whether all five tools will manifest in the majors. It’s in there, but he has to implement it a much higher rate to reach his projected role. He seems to be going through the motions during his initial pro struggles. The ceiling is a first-division player, but there are quite a few boxes to check off to get there.

Yoan Moncada scouting report, 2015.

GrinnellSteve

I think people need to be careful when equating an absence of outward emotion with a lackadaisical attitude. Instead we need to look at whether a player is putting in the work (physical conditioning, adapting approaches, practicing) to get better. Is the player engaged in each play? Is he where he needs to be as each play unfolds? Is he able to take advantage of the other team’s mistakes?

I didn’t watch much of last night’s game, but I did see one time where Lynn was walking in the general direction of third instead of hustling to get in position to backup a throw to third. No one questions Lynn’s intensity, but in that moment he let his disgust get in the way of being where he should have been on the field. That’s how mistakes can compound. In this case, it didn’t matter. But it could have.

Moncada often looks lackadaisical, but one man’s “lackadaisical” is another man’s “quiet professionalism.” I’ve always liked players who score a touchdown and simply toss the ball to the ref, acting like they’ve been there before. Are they lackadaisical? Who the hell knows?

BuehrleMan

So did you not see what Moncada did on the Rosario ground ball in the first inning?

If you did miss it then just look up the word “lackadaisical” in the dictionary because there will be a link to that play.

Augusto Barojas

I could be wrong, but he doesn’t exude “work ethic”, to me. A real shame, they could certainly have had Devers instead if they had asked, Moncada was much more highly ranked. But who knew.

Augusto Barojas

Interesting. It said Boston would have walked away if they had to deal Devers, but that was with Moncada was already in the deal. I would find it hard to believe that had they replaced Moncada with Devers in their ask, that they would have been denied, given where the two ranked. Oh well, we got the guy with a prior eating disorder!

upnorthsox

Correct, Hahn was more interested in who won the trade(I got their No. 1!!) and not what the best trade was. I still think Bellinger and Buehler would’ve been better.

Trooper Galactus

I know he had a couple injuries, but watching Bellinger go from a 23-year old MVP to what he is now has been shocking.

upnorthsox

Yes I agree, I’d still take that 1 year though.

As Cirensica

His shoulder injury really impacted him tremendously. His swing was never the same.

texag10

Is Lance not backing up bases lackadaisical? Is Jose dropping a foul pop up because he tries to over-the-shoulder it lackadaisical? Every player on this team does shit like that but only one player gets policed about it on a near daily basis.

SocksO’Graham

Catcher is a gaping hole next year.

Trooper Galactus

If Grandal’s knees are toast and he can’t swing a bat any more, yeah, probably, unless you think Zavala and Perez can somehow hold the line behind him.

SocksO’Graham

Which reporter is going to ask Hahn how the hell he can justify how they handled Robert in the last month?

Trooper Galactus

And Anderson.

And Kopech.

And Jimenez.

And Moncada.

And Grandal.

And so on, and so on.

Last edited 12 days ago by Trooper Galactus
SocksO’Graham

Lynn has gotten screwed by first inning defense the last few starts
Abreu going too far to his right
Abreu dropping a throw that hit him right in the mitt
Prima Donna Moncada last night

GrinnellSteve

On September 20, 1964 the Phillies won their 90th game and had a 6-1/2 game lead over both the Reds and Cardinals.

10 days later, they were still stuck on 90 wins. Now they were in 3rd place, 2-1/2 behind the Cards and 1-1/2 back of the Reds. They finished 92-70, tied with the Reds and a game out.

It’s just like running hard to first. You can’t take advantage of the other team’s face plant if you’re not doing everything possible to take advantage of it. Incredibly unlikely, Cleveland could still blow their lead.

That said, I’ll be the most shocked person in the world if the Sox advance.

chipporter

The person/people who get hired for next year, regardless of position (GM, MGR, etc) will have to answer yes, to the following question.

Do you think you can win with this roster?

That’s what we’ll get from Jerry.

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