Rick Hahn begins undoing second attempt at rebuild, leaving questions about a third
The Detroit Tigers ultimately fired Al Avila last August due to a stalled rebuild, but the timing followed a strangely dormant deadline period. The Tigers had all sorts of relief prospects to deal, but they ended up only trading Robbie Grossman to the Braves and Michael Fulmer to the Twins. Both were impending free agents, and both yielded non-prospect returns.
Avila probably couldn’t save his job with a more active deadline, but a passive one summed up his tenure a little too neatly, according to Bless You Boys …
As Avila’s final act as general manager, the deadline silence was an uncomfortably fitting end to his seven years running the Detroit Tigers. While teams around the league looked to get better now or for the future, the Tigers just flipped two players headed for free agency anyway for minimal return and called it good. The message has been pretty clear for a half-decade now, and it was reiterated in Avila’s comments. He rarely made trades unless he had to, and when pressed claimed there were no deals available that would really improve the team. Hence the problem.
… and The Athletic’s Cody Stavenhagen:
It’s not so much that the road to this particular trade deadline was paved with mistakes. If the Tigers did not get quality offers for pitchers such as Tarik Skubal, Gregory Soto, Joe Jiménez or Andrew Chafin, then they would have been foolish to settle just for the appearance of making a deal.
But this year’s deadline does seem like one more symptom of a disease Tigers fans know all too well. The Tigers and their current front office have failed to display creativity in navigating the market, executing trades and ultimately constructing a roster.
I’ve been thinking about the Detroit Paradox as the White Sox navigate this crucial deadline period. Given that Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams have officially botched two rebuilds now, there’s no reason to hang hopes on their ability to execute a third. At the same time, one should want them to make the best of a bad situation. The hope is that they’d leave a better mess for a new administration to clean up. The fear is that they’d justify their existence to Jerry Reinsdorf, because he doesn’t appear to have any standards.
My first impression is that Edgar Quero and Ky Bush comprise a pretty good return for Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo López, because if these trades were done individually, Quero would be a good return for Giolito, and Bush would be a good return for López. This doesn’t look like spinning the peak of Tommy Kahnle’s value for a package headlined by Blake Rutherford because the cash owed to David Robertson and Todd Frazier watered down the equation.
But it’s overshadowed by the fact that the White Sox had to trade Giolito at all.
Hahn said “there’s an element of real deep disappointment” that such a move was necessary. I’d only quibble with the word “element,” because “deep disappointment” sums up Hahn’s tenure as GM, and there’s no way out of it anytime soon. This is Hahn’s 11th season as GM of the White Sox, and he only has one winning 162-game season to show for it. We know from 2013 and 2016-17 that Hahn is decent at selling off good players for encouraging returns, so turning Giolito and López into two prospects worth following means little. The problem is everything that comes after. Hahn has some good ideas in his first draft, but revisions remain an elusive concept.
It’s unfair to saddle guys like Quero and Bush with the baggage from the previous rebuilds, but it’s also unfair to White Sox fans to suspend their cynicism when their track record says to suppress all optimism. There’s really only one way out of this, and one shouldn’t believe Reinsdorf is willing to take it until a month after it happens.
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Two somewhat un nerving quotes or comments from yesterday….
1 the thought they can contend in 2024 which is nuts, and would suggest no one in the front office is getting the ax
2 they think bush and quero can help next year which is a shockingly rushed timeline, and would be a mistake for a team too stupid to properly develop players because they unrealistically think they can contend
The possibility of the Sox rushing both Bush and Quero is what gives me pause about being excited about this trade. Both guys might be good major league players, but it seems like they both need more development in the minors and there is nothing that suggests the White Sox know how to develop players at any level.
I think it is just bs for season ticket holders. The Central is weak. Maybe if they strike pitcher reclamation project gold and the offense clicks, they could compete next year, but those chances are slim.
Short of firing everyone and letting a new front office build a roster from the ground up, trying in 2024 is what they should do. The division is historically awful. Try to win it. Keep your prospects, but hike that payroll back to $200m and see what happens. They have the best hitter and best pitcher in the division. Several prospects’ ETA is 2024. Sign some pitchers and see what happens.
I have NO confidence this front office can build a winner in 2024—nor in 2027. So I’m pulling for them to try every year and maybe the blind squirrels will find a few nuts.
Their top prospects eta’s to me would be:
2025 Montgomery, Ramos, Quero, Mena
2026 Schultz,
The guys for 2024 are more mid tier like Sosa, Rodriguez, Burke, if Martin is healthy. Maybe Cannon, Pallette, McDougal types could see the squad 2nd half of 2024
This team isnt winning anything next year, even if they came up with a massive payroll the free agent market isnt that good which really works against them as well.
FWIW, mlb.com lists 6 of top 7 prospects as 2024 ETA (and 17 of top 30) pre-Quero & Gonzalez and FG has 5 of top 7 w/Quero & Gonzalez. I know this is outdated but I do think everyone you name except Schultz is a possibility in 2024 at some point (even if 2nd half). I’d add Thompson, Tatum, and Bush.
Of course, most of those guys won’t make it in 2024 and some will never make it. But the point is the Sox will have more talent in the high minors (AA & AAA) in 2024 than at any point in several years. That’s on a scale relative to the White Sox and so isn’t saying much. But it’ll be refreshing to see depth which isn’t veteran castoffs from other teams.
The pitching market in their neighborhood isn’t bad. There are several guys in the $15-20 AAV, 2-4 year neighborhood, which is where they like to shop. And that’s what they need: pitching.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m under no illusions they will win. But I don’t think this current FO will build a winner in 2026, either. At least in 2024 we know the division is terrible and there is real talent on this team. It’s just taking a few half-measures and hoping everything clicks—so, just like the last 4 years.
Besides, what’s the downside here? What I’m proposing is just spending more of JR’s money. If he wants to put $200m on the field, it’d make a much more watchable product. So why not?
The problem with proposing spending more of JR’s money is that it isn’t going to happen. He’s not going to bump up payroll after a season where they were terrible and attendance tanked. It’s just not going to happen. What’s the best they can do this offseason? Sign a couple of mid-tier starting pitchers and maybe a catcher like Narvaez. There just aren’t any difference makers out there in Jerry’s price range. He’s not signing Ohtani, Matt Chapman, Urias, Nola or any of the other top starting pitchers. The top 2nd baseman is probably Adam Frazier. The top outfielder is Hunter Renfroe or Joc Pederson. Grandal is probably the top catcher available. And Amed Rosario or TA are the top shortstops available. And they don’t have the assets to make a blockbuster trade. Let’s face it Frank, we’re screwed as long as Jerry/Hahn/Kenny are running this team. As I’ve said several time, if they screwed up a rebuild which produced 7 top-100 prospects, they have no chance at one where there top acquisition is going to be a bat-first catcher.
I already admitted this team is screwed as long as this FO is in charge. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try. And if they’re going to try sometimes, it might as well be when the division is historically bad.
Several posts ago I proposed an offseason in which they sign Sonny Gray, Carlos Carrasco, Adam Frazier, and SP depth like Vince Velasquez. That’d be well within JR’s price range. It’s far from a juggernaut and still is a cross-your-fingers-and-hope-for-internal-improvements approach. But with 2-3 “ifs” coming around, I think they could compete in the worst division in recent memory.
The pitching market is pretty interesting, you could also add flaherty as a guy looking to rebuild value, maybe you do a 2 year ( 1 year still rehabbing) with frankie montas… that way if he bounces back you have him under control for 2025….
The pitching options are out there, but color me extremely skeptical they go spend a lot of money.
They are about to lose 90-100 games this year. They will lose 2 of their 4 top starters. Sonny Gray and Carlos Carrasco are not better that Giolito and Lynn, unless somehow Carrasco stays completely healthy. Adam Frazier will not make this team better. A catching platoon of Zavala/Perez is awful. Their bullpen, as disappointing as it has been, will be weakened. There is no way the division will be as bad as this year. With all of that, unless Moncada, Colas, Eloy, Vaughn stay healthy and are very productive, this team has no chance next year. And if Hahn is GM, you can rest assured that Grifol will be the manager.
The only way they can be competitive in 24 is if Hahn is fired and replace by someone outside of the organization. Then Grifol will be fired and there might be some competence in the GM/manager.
Sonny Gray and Carlos Carrasco are, in fact, better than Giolito and Lynn, and by a fair margin, in ERA, ERA+, FIP, WAR, etc. They should be able to sign Gray and Giolito, but we know that won’t happen.
Yes, I admit, this plan needs some internal help. You one of Eloy/Vaughn to turn into a middle-of-the-order masher. You need TA back on track. And probably one of Sosa or Colas to be average. It’s not much but it’s not nothing.
You mean the Carlos Carrasco that is awful this year. Look at his stats. There is nothing appealing about any of them. And I would take Giolito over Sonny Gray any day. You have spent the last few months defending Lance Lynn. Now you throw him under the bus to make Carlos Carrasco look like Cy Young. Lynn and Giolito take the ball every 5th day. I’ll take those two over Gray and Carrasco any day of the week.
Whoa. You’re accusing me of lots here. All I said was the duo of Gray and Carrasco are better than the Giolito and Lynn duo. Which, again, is simply a fact.
I certainly did not “make Carrasco look like Cy Young.” In fact, I can’t find anything I said about Carrasco specifically.
I also did not “throw [Lynn] under the bus.” In fact, I can’t find anything I said about Lynn specifically.
You’re missing the point if you think this is about Gray or Carrasco. Those are just names, stand-ins if you will. It’s only to respond to the point people make about “the Sox losing 3/5 of rotation.” In response, I’m saying, “yeah, but only 1/5 pitched well this year, they were paid a combined $40m, and the Sox could make up their performance in the aggregate by signing pitchers for a combined $40m.”
But, again, Carrasco is not worth signing. He has an admirable story, sounds like a great guy, but is not a good pitcher anymore. And Sonny Gray had a fantastic start this year, but has really dropped off the last couple of months, and is almost 34. Those guys are not going to make a difference on next year’s team. Plus, he will probably be out of Jerry’s price range.
The anti-tanking draft format also makes this kind of retooling more appealing. If they want to spend a few bucks, can get a guys on short deals, then the team will at least be somewhat watchable and they can flip guys at the next trade deadine if it flops. That would not be the worst thing.
Yeah. I frankly don’t understand the push back. All I’m suggesting is JR spend his money. Why would fans not want this?
The fans want this. It’s just we know JR won’t do this. I think he should have a $250M payroll with all the money he saved during the tank years.
probably minor semantics but my eta more based on contributing full time not just a cup of coffee, I think the mlb.com site is giving you a when they could reach the majors eta
Yeah and that is an importance difference, so fair enough. I still think the high minors talent will be as good as it’s been in a long time heading into next year. Some of that should translate to the MLB roster in early-to-mid 2024.
I may not know much, but one thing I’m certain of: White Sox player development, management and scouting are not on the same page with plans on how to maximize players potential. Hope to be wrong though
This is a 95 loss team that just lost its arguably best pitcher, and is set to lose 2 other starters, plus their starting catcher. They will wind up with 24th attendance (where they are now) or worse. Jerry isn’t going to follow that up with a free agent spending spree, with the worst free agent class in years. They might be in the bottom 3 teams in MLB next year. Talk of them trying for next year is senseless.
Since they cant gain anything being bad in 2024 due to draft pick rules, they may as well bring in 4 or 5 1 year deal types… hope to hit on next years bellinger type player and spin them at the deadline
The pitching market should offer a variety of options but man the free agent hitters are terrible as a whole
The “two other starters” were both bad and getting paid a combined $30m. You may be right that they won’t spend. In which case, you’re right – they aren’t going to compete with Vince Velazquez and Jesse Scholtens as their #3 and #4. But if they are willing to invest the ~$40m in payroll leaving the rotation back into the rotation, they should be able to replace the performance—or better.
Talk of them winning ever is senseless under the current regime. That doesn’t mean they should never try again.
Why, in the world, would anybody speculate about them investing 30-40M into their rotation coming off a season with 24th or worse attendance, and attendance sure to be even worse next year, when they have never spent like that even after good seasons? This team will finish 30 games below .500, and that was with Giolito most of the year. You don’t make up for that with panzy ass spending on a couple mediocre free agent pitchers, which is the only kind of spending Jerry has ever done, and the only quality of players they have ever signed.
They are one of the bottom 5 or 6 teams in baseball, and a sure bet to lose 90 next year. I’d bet my house on that.
To answer your question: because they said they’re going to try in 2024. Maybe they were lying and maybe by try they mean make Jesse Scholtens your #3 starter. If so, yeah, I’m with you.
As I told Roke above, Gray & Carrasco are a lot better than Gio & Lynn this year. They won’t sign anyone of Gio’s caliber, but, if they really are interested in trying even at their typical half-assed level, they should be able to make up his performance in the aggregate.
I think the disagreement people have with your comparison of Giolito&Lynn to Gray&Carrasco is the word “lot”.
This year:
Gray bWAR=2.9
Giolito bWAR=2.7
Carrasco bWAR=–0.3
Lynn bWAR=–1.2
[Lynn and Carrasco have almost idential ERA+ with Lynn at 68 and Carrasco at 71. Lynn’s lower bWAR is partly due to being bad for so many more innings (119.2 ip vs 68.0 ip). I’m not sure being bad for fewer innings is a better use of a rotation spot.]
Hard to see them as a “lot better”.
Your bigger point that the Sox could fill rotation holes for $40M is essentially true although I think a guy like Gray will get multiple years and the Sox don’t do that for older pitchers.
To say that Gray and Carrasco are a lot better is just disingenuous. I’m not sure anyone would rather have Sonny Gray over Giolito going forward, and Lynn and Carrasco are both well past their primes, though Lynn has at least shown some flashes of decency this year. No way Gray and Carrasco are a step up in ’24. Though Carrasco would fit right in on the Sox, since he has thrown a whopping 68 innings so far this year.
I don’t know why you have to call me disingenuous, especially when I’m making statistics-based arguments. It feels like you’re shooting from the hip here without giving my claims a fair shake (maybe I’m wrong). See the numbers for yourself. I’ve defended Lynn all year and below gave my teary farewell to Gio. I’m not out to get them. The fact remains it’d be a lot easier to replace their production this year than some Sox fans here suggest.
Ok, I feel we’re arguing around each other. I certainly agree that it would be easier to replace their production from this year than some suggest. But we need to really exceed their production if the Sox expect to improve next year. Sonny Gray would be a good start, but they would need to add Urias, Aaron Nola or (as you suggested) resign Giolito. Adding Carrasco would just replace Clevinger at this point, though Clevinger has been better this year. They need at least 3 legitimate starters to add to Kopech and Cease. I was hoping they might get a decent prospect in the Giolito trade. Maybe they can get one from Miami for TA. Then they need to sign two legit starters.
As always, all of these proposals we have are pointless if JR and Hahn are still running things. We can talk until we’re blue in the face, but that won’t change the fact that we’re screwed until at least Hahn is replaced.
I would argue that if the Sox signed both Gray and Carrasco, neither of which is likely, that there is absolutely no reason to think they won’t lose 90 games next year. B/c if that’s an improvement over Giolito and Clevinger, it wouldn’t be by much, and their team on the field stinks to high heaven. Robert is their only above average position player, and Beni the only player that can really be called average. Everybody else is below average, with 3b, 2b, RF, and catcher close to league worst category heading into next year. Maybe add SS to that list. And it’s the worst defensive team in the league, 3 years running! There is a chasm between this roster and being a .500 team. They aren’t bridging that in a single offseason, ridiculous to even contemplate.
And I don’t care what anybody might have said about them “competing next year”. They thought they were competing heading into 2022 and 23! That’s their definition of “competing”. They have proved over and over that they never actually mean anything they say or back it up with sensible actions in the first place.
Yes, signing Gray and Carrasco won’t make them better then they were before they traded Giolito. There is one path toward respectability for this team and it features Rick Hahn in the unemployment line, standing next to Pedro Grifol. And no one who has any previous ties to the Sox as the new GM.
I dunno, I think the gap is larger than you’re suggesting here. First, I should’ve clarified I was comparing them as pairs. More importantly, while you can find a stat or two for each in which one is close to his counterpart, the full picture is a pretty resounding victory for the Gray & Carrasco camp:
Combined, we’re talking about a difference of 1.1 WAR and about 25 points of ERA+ (I know it doesn’t work like that but it’s the right idea). Maybe “a lot” isn’t right… maybe “not at all close” fits better? Fair enough. But it feels a little like semantics at that point.
But, yes, we’re missing the forest for the trees. Like I told Roke: this isn’t about Gray and Carrasco. I used them as placeholders. What I’m really after is to show it wouldn’t be that difficult to replace 3/5 of the rotation next year with the same amount of money.
I have confidence that Jerry is more likely to die by 2027 than by 2024. Since that’ll be the only way the Sox possibly end up with competent management, I’d be happy with a 2026-27 rebuild plan. IMO it’s the right thing to do strategically (leaving aside who is managing). When you add in that Jerry and Co. are more likely to be gone, it’s even better.
Of course, Jerry doesn’t want it, so it won’t happen. But then again, neither will anything like a $200m payroll IMO.
The payroll was $200m last year.
We’ve all been fed the lie that “rebuild” and “try now” are incompatible. The White Sox are in an enormous market. It’s not against the rules to spend $200m and keep your prospects. They make plenty of money and a $200m budget is completely reasonable.
Yes, the payroll was a record (for them) $200m last year — when they were coming off a 93-win season and lots of people thought they had a legit shot at the championship.
But after the 81 win season, Reinsdorf’s buddy La Russa left, and Jerry cut the payroll by over $20m (Spotrac). Now that the team this year is absolutely terrible, I can’t see Jerry suddenly upping the payroll to near last year. I expect the payroll to go way down next year — if they trade or don’t exercise the options for Lynn, TA, Hendriks, Clevinger and Kelly, the 2024 payroll will be under $100m (w/o new FA signings).
Anything is possible, but I’d be pleasantly surprised if the payroll is over even $150m next year.
I think that is a very accurate take. Jerry will sign a couple of mid-tier free agents and keep payroll at $150M or lower.
To be clear, I don’t think they’ll put $200m on the field, either. But we’re talking about what they should do that’s within the realm of possibility (I.e., that’s possible under this regime based on their history). If they’re planning to try, $200m isn’t impossible. That’s probably not even a top 10 payroll next year, given inflation and the distance we’re putting between us and the COVID years.
Best hitter in the division? Robert had two great months in May and June and is a very talented player. But he has a lot more work to do before anyone can definitively say that he is a better hitter than Jose Ramirez.
Yeah, “player” is a better word than “hitter.” He’ll never be as good a pure hitter as Ramirez. But because he plays elite defense at a premium position and puts up huge offensive numbers, he’s the better/more valuable player.
Any take comparing Robert and Ramirez is insane. Ramirez is light years better. He busts his tail on every play, every out, he hits the daylights out of the ball with risp, takes extra bases, he lifts that team to contention every year. He is the unquestioned leader of the team, and demands they play like he does. Last year he had a hand injury that required offseason surgery. Do you remember hearing about it? No? Cause he played through it 110% like he always does. Our guys sit out for unspecified discomfort.
Robert is being praised cause he’s actually trying hard this year. He mashes fastballs when we’re down 6-0 and pitchers challenge him. He can’t hit with men on. He has something like a 140-25 strikeout to walk ratio. He’s built like an absolute tank yet has to constantly take it easy cause his muscles hurt. The comparison of these two players is a good comparison for the teams. How do the guards get so much more out of less? Look no further
I don’t need to make the comparison, the numbers do it. Robert leads the AL in WAR and he’d be an MVP favorite if not for Ohtani. He’s got a higher wRC+ than Ramirez, too. But, reading your post, I’m guessing WAR and wRC+ don’t do it for you, so I guess we’re at an impasse.
And as for projecting next year (and beyond), it’s at least worth pointing out Robert is 25 and Ramirez will be 31 in a couple of months.
I’m with you HallofFrank…it takes truly special insight to conclude the reason the Guardians are better than the Sox is the Sox 4 WAR CF who literally has the highest position player WAR in the AL…I guess “look no further” is a data analytics technique I’m unfamiliar with but if it produces analysis like this, there’s certainly no arguing with it.
You’re ignoring the key point that Robert only tries sometimes and Ramirez like all non-Sox players tries all the time. I wish there was some way to tell just by looking at a Sox player if he was a guy who tries or not.
.
There is actually, watch the games. Tell me please of those times when moncada, robert, Eloy, TA, all of our massively talented WAR players are out there giving it 100%. Tell me simply when they’re out there actually, that should do.
If you don’t think the guards hustling, picking up extra bases, doing the little things right is why they are better than the sox with far less “talent” then I don’t know what to say.
I said you can compare the two because their best player also hits with men on. He has more walks than strikeouts. Plays hurt. Really hurt not just sore. Read any article on the team and you’ll see how he busts it every day and holds other accountable. Who’s doing that on the sox? Who’s leading? Or is just a bunch of guys who got paid early and decided the work was done. Compare the Braves. They gave out the same early deals Hahn did. Their players took it as a challenge, now let’s go earn it. Ours quit, plain and simple.
Our best player shows up sometimes. He’s feeling tight so he takes it easy. Has shown no improvement in 4 years on plate discipline and is actively getting worse. Their best vs our best. It’s not close. If you think it is, then you can have your WARs all you want. Robert is baseball Russ Westbrook
The value of stats is that they provide actual evidence, where any assessment of “effort” is just your blind guess. Oh, and Robert has played 100 games this year, leading the team.
I think the fact that it’s cause for celebration that one of the sox core players made it to 100 games is one on my side personally.
Ramirez has played
152
152
157
129
58/60
152
157
98/102
And his ops+ has been 140+ in all but one year.
Good for him. Robert has been an everyday player this year. He couldn’t hardly play more, and you’re implying he sits out without reason. Cool.
Ok well last year Robert sat like 6 weeks with an undisclosed vitamin deficiency. That seems like nothing. He came back and hurt his wrist sliding in a way that didn’t show up on any scans. So he played for a bit except sometimes when he swung his hand went awe-y and he couldn’t hold the bat. Which lead him to sitting the last month. So about 3 months missed with really no reason why.
I know I’m simplifying but those were the reasons given by the team. No vitamins. No injury so he plays but sometimes it hurts on funky swings.
technically, awe-y is how he’s been swinging this year…
He was clearly, visibly not physically right last season. If you want to hate on guys for being injured, you do you, but personally, I refuse to hold it against guys, especially in the context of this organization that is notorious for mismanaging injuries.
This is some stupid sh*t right here.
Were you watching the two games against the Cubs?
The difference in effort and attitude was like night and day.
GarPax had this payroll flexibility bullshit down, and KenHa seem to have learned well. You never actually go for it, and you stagger contract expirations to create payroll space every year. You’re always just a couple year from competing. I’m sure they’re pitching it as “spend no money in 2024, let some prospects percolate, and try to sign Corbin Burnes in 2025.”
I will say something positive about Rick Hahn. Nice work using two expiring contracts to get a guy hitting in AA before he can legally drink.
Is Quero a catcher or another glove-free corner infielder/DH? May be worth monitoring what the Sox do with Julio Mosquera and Guillermo Quiroz in supervising his defensive development.
It boggles the mind that the same guy who traded Zach Duke seven Julys ago remains in charge to make this deal. Best wishes to the two escapees who are finally free of this organization’s nonsense.
Zach Duke. Woah, that’s a player I forgot existed
Likewise, Charlie Tilson
Jerry simply has to purge his lackeys and bring in a James Click type person for his front office. It really is a straightforward situation in some ways.
Instead, he has himself on a collision course with this fanbase.
Given the Gio/ReyLo return, I’m more convinced they need to trade Cease now.
Naively hoping Hahn will be fired after the deadline, and Getz WON’T be his replacement.
I’m predicting Hahn resigns on Tuesday or shortly after. He looked really uncomfortable last night, and surely sees the same press conferences playing out over and over. He can’t answer the question “why will this time be different?”. this is how JR transitions, watching his people resign in humiliation.
I think the more likely result is KW retires and Hahn get’s kicked to his role as Executive VP and either Getz or Haber becomes GM. Hahn then quietly get to collect a paycheck while having no real responsibility.
If Jerry is going to change anything I think it will come the end of the season. I would be genuinely surprised if it happened now.
Hahn will stay at this party until the owner of the house moves out. He knows how good he has it.
So Hahn is Kato kaelin and Jerry is OJ and we are collectively Nicole Brown.
Darryl Boston is obviously Bill Cosby.
He looked uncomfortable because he realizes that the “emperor lost all his clothes”. He hasn’t found the time to buy a loincloth, but once he does, he will strut to the mics with his smug smile believing he is wearing a $5,000 Italian suit.
If I was making $1M a year with complete job security and no repercussions for any move I do or don’t make, I sure wouldnt resign. I doubt Hahn would either.
There’s no hope. I’ve been of the same mindset of ParisSox where I wanted to cheer for them to win and turn it around because I didn’t want Hahn selling off the pieces again. Obviously they suck so bad that that wasn’t tenable. Now we are in a worse spot with less cost controlled talent than when we started this process and I don’t see the path forward to building a contender. I can’t see the path and don’t have the hope that we’ve had over all these years. That really sucks.
Agreed. I’m in full sell mode now. Even Cease and Robert because maybe they can give a solid base of future talent for a new regime to work with.
With that said, as I don’t trust that the regime will be sufficiently changed, then keep Cease and Robert just to give us something to watch during the next 5 year non-competing window.
An aside, I highly recommend a two week break from following the team. I was disappointed upon my return that there was no 10 game winning streak, but I was also liberated from my frustration.
Robert and Cease would be the guys I’d most want to trade for future assets.
Yes, Jerry and Co. would likely ruin anything they got in return, but the more the Sox exchange current assets for future assets, the more likely it is that Jerry dies in the meantime.
I also did a de-sox a couple of weeks ago. It helps (for a little while).
Two years ago, I purchased two player jersey shirts: Tim Anderson and Lucas Giolito. Two short years later, I found myself hoping both would be traded. Lost in all this is a very human element: yes, I want the White Sox to stock the farm system in foolish hopes of future success, but it’s also profoundly sad to watch these guys leave. As a fan of Kentucky basketball, I’ve become numb to the cycle of players, which spins so fast you can never become attached to any players. At least with UK, we’re usually good. With the White Sox, it’s the worst of both worlds: you can’t get attached to a player because they can’t build a winner with them. It’s frustrating enough that they can’t win. It compounds the frustration when we have to watch our favorite players play elsewhere.
My takeaway: Go Angels. They aren’t as baseball savvy as the Rays or Dodgers. But it sure is refreshing to watch a team do whatever they can to retain their best players and try to win when they see an opening.
could be worse I got a really nice robert jersey and then he switched to robert jr fml
The “Robert” jersey still looks much cooler.
The Angles seem like a pretty bad organization. They want to retain Ohtani because it makes the asset more valuable. They don’t care about winning.
I actually think Arte Moreno cares about winning, but he has no clue how to do it. He is a meddler like Reinsdorf, but I think he has better intentions than Reinsdorf.
But at the end of the day, who cares why he does it? It makes the asset more valuable because more people are interested in the product. As long as they realize the path to more money is by making fans happy, then I’m happy. I’m sure JR’s strategy for making money works, but it’s certainly doesn’t make fans happy.
You should have have bought a Leury Garcia shirsey in 2013.
I also bought a Gordon Beckham shirsey, so maybe there’s something to this after all…
I named my cat Gordon during his rookie season. Bad decision.
But good cat, right?
Nope. He got jealous of my kids and peed all over their toys. I had to give him away.
You should have told all your guests that you named the cat after Gordon Lightfoot and then treated them to you singing The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in its entirety. You could then have been sure anyone who stayed all 6 minutes was a true friend.
How dare you, sir. I could have a lovely singing voice for all that you know.
Ah, where to begin? First off, I will not watch Hahn speak at any time. If I did, I’m sure I would throw a brick through the computer screen in frustration/anger. This is officially the beginning of another rebuild, which failed as soon as they passed on Harper. I would imagine Rick is saying, “Well, that was successful! I promised winning multiple
championshipsplayoff games, and I delivered!! It’s pretty apparent that they are either so utterly clueless (most likely) or they are not expecting to be competitive in 2024, because they did not get any major-league ready prospects for their number 1 trade asset. But I’m sure they’ll rush Quero up and he will end up being another bust. This is just so pathetic. And Hahn will not resign, as some of you are predicting. The guy obviously has no shame, that in a year when they expected to compete for the World Series, they are 21 games under .500 and dropping like a rock. For Jerry to trust this imbecile with another rebuild is just so infuriating. I’ve had it with this group. The only hope I have now is that they lose 100 games this season, and Jerry is forced to fire Hahn. I’m not even sure he would do that if that happened. I actually spent the last two days rooting for the Cubs, because I really want to see 100 losses. I hope the Guardians sweep them over the next 4 days. Something drastic has to happen. Otherwise, this rebuild will go much worse than the last.Gotta love the lose lose situations this team puts themselves in. No choice this FO makes will feel good because fans have seen this before. The limitations the team puts on themselves because they want to win “their way”, hehe losing culture and all, means they can’t buy their way out of anything, develop their way out of this or just be more creative than other teams as an org to get the most out of talent year to year.
I’m not suggesting this front office isn’t trash, but this recent narrative of 2 rebuilds has always puzzled me. Hahn officially took over leading into the 2013 season, and tore everything down with the Sale trade in December 2016. I would consider this a “rebuild”.
Heading into the 2013 draft our number 1 prospect was Courtney Hawkins with the roster and farm system by and large Kenny’s. Those intervening three years I remember conversational under and overtones were who was actually pulling the levers in the front office as they were still attempting to compete despite being an awful team with many Kenny like trades. I don’t know if I’d consider 2013 to 2016 a rebuild like it’s being suggested. More along the “White Sox Way” of always trying to compete despite having a bottom 5 farm system and limited money to spend until they actually let Hahn do his thing.
Where I think Hahn did go wrong was not signing one of Manny or Bryce, and then proceeding to let 2nd and RF be a three year hole while spending money on a bullpen that is now arguably the worst in baseball.
Hahn oversaw what he dubbed a “retooling”. He quickly truncated said retooling for a larger rebuild when he realized we were heading nowhere fast. Furthermore, Hahn worked under Kenny, so it isn’t like he didn’t play a role in the farm system that was there when he assumed the GM title.
You can quibble with the one vs. two rebuilds if you like, but failing one is usually enough to get a GM fired.
The White Sox won 85 games the year before. Hahn’s boldest move was signing Jeff Keppinger. He might’ve been correct to hedge his bets about the quality of the 2012 team, but it still resulted in a sell-off and a couple years of not trying to contend.
It would be pure unbridled madness to take any stock in whatever happens this trade deadline and offseason, much less sit patiently through another rebuild with hope for 2025 or 2026. Christ, are those even real years? They don’t sound real. And you want me to wait that long to find out if your baseball team doesn’t undermine itself again when the contention window opens?
Will the trades hit? Even if they hit, will the players develop in this system? Even if they develop, by the time they reach the bigs, will the major league team be ready to further their development along? Assuming ALL these things happen with competency, which anyone here would be crazy to assume, what stupid thing will the Sox do instead to hamper or undo any of these time-tested methods of success?
If anyone is familiar with the 1997 Wired “Long Boom” story, I think it’s rife for a Sox version. A blueprint for success, but with a sidebar of 10 things that could (and seemingly inevitably will) go wrong to sabotage the whole thing.
Jim you have my email, let me know when you’re ready to make a new survived the rebuild pennant. We’ll need a larger one this time.
I want reporters to start absolutely grilling both Hahn and KW about what sort of contracts they would be allowed to commit to. Giolito wanted to stay here and he was pretty good, so why didn’t they sign him? Why don’t they sign anybody good, ever? What is the point of any of this?
Yep. In an alternate universe where the Sox win the division and Giolito finishes 2023 strong, would they have given him the $140M that he’s likely to command? It seems unlikely.
They would point to the 9 figure contracts that they’ve offered, but in none of those have they been willing to risk the winner’s curse by offering the player more than any other team, or in the 1 case they were (Wheeler), they weren’t willing to buy him out of his location preferences.
And I’m not saying they should necessarily pay Giolito that much, but if you’re not willing to beat the market for *any * premium free agent, then what are we doing here?
Yeah exactly. I’m not suggesting you should re-sign every impending free agent on your roster, but it seems like the only signings we are ever going to see are either the meh Benintendi types or the “sign your next ten years away for $5” type deals.
In theory the latter strategy could work if you had the player development infrastructure to buy out the arb years of players that will actually be good. However, to me it seems like you also need to be willing to eat some of those, since it’s unlikely that your budding MLB talent will always stick or turn into the player you projected them to be. Where they went wrong is signing what they thought were multiple superstars, dusting their hands together, and sat back waiting for the parade to pick them up without any reevaluation of whether the young talent they signed were, you know, talented.
Exactly. Almost every free agent signing is an overpay because most of the time the player signs with the team that offered the most money. If you aren’t willing to pay more than anyone else then you will not sign free agents. Period.
We’re signing middling – average left fielders for team-record contracts to hit less than a half dozen home runs in a season.
Oh, and losing. We’re losing too.
The Sox said in early May that they weren’t going to re-sign Giolito. To me, if you actually think you are going to compete and you aren’t an idiot or a jerk or both then you at least keep your mouth shut about one of your two best pitchers and hope that he can get you to the playoffs. They literally were not going to re-sign Giolito no matter what his performance was. Maybe because he is a union guy. Good for him that he gets to spend a couple of months back home and playing in a pitcher’s park. I hope he pitches his way to a big contract. He (and ReyLo) were class acts.
Giolito has a fairly active role with the MLBPA so I’m not totally convinced he was going to get a competitive offer from the Sox.
So what are we calling this next era? #ThreeBuild or #R3BUILD ?
#WaitingontheGrimReaper
De-build?
I think we might be re-de-building
#WeDon’tGiveAFuck
#BatoverLegs
“Rick’s turd rebuild”. Turd time’s the charm!
I have no idea if these players from the Angels are good, bad or a little of both. Either does anyone in the picture above the article. Unless current ownership moves on, what’s the point. Team was bought over 40 years ago for around 22, 23 million dollars. What’s it worth today? One billion, two billion? I have no idea. But its worth a lot. They got their ring. Why not move on? Unless there is such a major change in the operation of the franchise, I don’t hold much hope. But it is not my toy. If it was I’d try to take better care of it! This fan base with all the beatdowns it gets, deserves it!
Cryptic…kind of.
Hard to name more hopeless and indifferently run franchises than the Bulls or Sox.
If only there was something in common between those two teams in completely different sports … a single root cause that could be changed/fixed, and all of a sudden, both teams would be run well. Oh well, we’re certainly not going to crack this today.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/white-sox-trade-rumors-tim-anderson-marlins.html
No idea what marlins farm system is like but let’s hope we keep the fire sale going and grab some prospects.
Like half of their top 20 are pitchers, so they’d be a good team to match up with.
If teams are looking at him as a buy low candidate, I say don’t bother.
I prefer to not trade anybody but guys on expiring contracts just in case Jerry sees religion and fires Hahn after the season.
I can watch, talk about and be consumed by awful baseball. But it’s ok because I love baseball and the Sox are my team. But listening to Hahn speak has become a legitimate trigger for me
Jim per usual nailed it: why can’t Rick just say “deeply disappointed.” The fact he feels the need to add the word “element” is just so Hahn.
I’m half-surprised he didn’t pat himself on the back for the original trade with Washington that brought Giolito here.
I think what’s most astounding to me is not that they underperformed. A lot of teams do (see: Padres). What’s amazing to me is they took a team that had national attention for they’re exciting style of play, and made them all exceedingly unlikeable. And then leaked that their one player that was still likeable was unwanted by the front office, and traded him after being a massive disappointment.
That is a feat in and of itself.
Most teams that are supposed to contend don’t “underperform” to this degree. I mean we are on pace to finish below 70 wins. This isn’t really underperforming this is falling out of a plane without a parachute. The Padres are five games under, they are disappointing, but they aren’t a trainwreck.
I don’t think we can hammer home enough how bad Hahn, Jerry, and Kenny have failed here. The Mets and Padres underperformed we ran into a cement wall.
I mean maybe, but the Sox don’t have players like Tatis, Soto, etc. I think we were all in the same boat when we looked at this roster at the beginning of the season and went “uh…what?”, maybe hoping they could scrounge up enough wins to take a bad Central Division. Then, when the projections came out our collective suspicions were reinforced. As a result, I’m not entirely surprised that they suck. They kind of were supposed to and predicted to by many.
Granted, the Padres play in a much tougher division, but they have outright superstars in their prime. The fact that they are below .500 at all is a massive disappointment.
I think if you were to ask fans of teams outside of the ALC, 80% wouldn’t be able to name more than a couple of White Sox players, and some non-trivial percentage wouldn’t even recognize the names if you gave them. Which is a massive shame given the emotional investment the team and this fanbase put into the storylines of their hopeful rebuilding effort.
Yes, I think many are not acknowledging this year’s team was not expected to be good, or even average. The problem is that the entire rebuild never reached long-term sustainability. It could at best give a couple decent years before it petered out.
The Sox also have a widely recognized brand which they’ve completely squandered. I’m in California and I see young guys wearing Sox caps and Southside jerseys regularly. I doubt they’re fans, they just like the look. Imagine how popular they could be if the team was any good.
Yesterday people were saying Hahn would be lucky to trade away as many as 2 of the players who needed to be jettisoned. Well, we have, what, 4 expiring contracts, and he just dealt 2 of them.
But he won’t get anyone good back. Well, this is an excellent return for those 2, a AA top 100 switch-hitting C who walks a ton and a AA pitcher who had success there before dealing with some injuries.
But the Sox won’t be able to develop them into good major leaguers. What’s the alternative? Only acquire bad players so we won’t be disappointed at their lack of development?
I want Hahn and Kenny and Jerry gone as much as anyone here, but in the absence of that gift, I’d rather Hahn made this trade than did nothing and kept Gio. Maybe a new regime will oversee things this winter or in a couple of years, but for now Hahn is the one. He made a good deal. We should be happy with that and save the vitriol for and angst for when he does some catastrophic like trading Robert solely for salary relief or extending Grifol.
The man has won one playoff game in 11 years as GM and we are supposed to shelve our angst because you like one trade he made? The organization is in a terrible place right now be thankful people care enough to bitch and haven’t simply walked away.
Pillory him all you want when he blunders or dissembles or hides, but everyone agrees Giolito needed to be moved if they weren’t going to resign him, and this trade has to exceed almost everyone’s expectation for the return. As a Sox fan you should enjoy that. One good trade doesn’t absolve him of a decade of wrongdoing, but I’m glad he got this trade right. It sure as hell beats holding Gio or making a terrible deal.
If we can’t celebrate game wins or performance wins or development wins or trade wins, things that make the Sox better or more interesting and watchable, what are we even doing here?
This isn’t a trade win. It may become one 3-4 years down the road, but right now nobody knows. I’m sure Rick and Kenny want us to think this is a win and congratulate them for their perspicacity. But nobody knows how these guys will turn out, so there’s nothing to celebrate now.
As to “what are we even doing here?” – I’m asking myself that and lots of other Sox fans are as well, I’m sure. This blog is 95% of the reason I still follow the Sox. If it weren’t for Jim I probably would have given up on this team permanently.
No one knows anything. You can’t evaluate ANY trade until the history is written. This trade is exactly what the Sox should be doing this week.
I’m bitter the rebuild was botched so thoroughly, but now that everyone, including Hahn, has acknowledged it, I want to see the Sox make deals that make sense. This one does. I’m angry that Hahn hasn’t been held to account and is the one who gets to make these deals, but as long as he is in that seat, I still want him to successfully restock the team.
Hey, he’s won *two* playoff games! Only one following a 162 game season, though.
Hahn vitriol is always appropriate, especially now. Pivoting toward selling represents a concrete turning point and yet another piece of evidence that Hahn’s rebuild is a total failure. Recognition that he made a single respectable move is not mutually exclusive with looking at the disastrous bigger picture.
See you at the parade.
I get your point. But I’m at the phase of: I dont trust them at all to evaluate/scout/develop anything in unison. As much as I want to agree with saving anger for the dumb stuff, my perspective is everything they do is relatively dumb. The fact they are this bad, for this long means I dont give any benefit of doubt. The new guys they brought in I hope buck the trend of the usual sox stalled development plans, but I dont believe it will happen until it does.
A picture says a lot. This one of three of the phoniest people on the planet.
I can’t even look at that picture with wanting to smash my computer screen.
I’m happy for them. It’ll be interesting to see if the Angels can make the playoffs. I’d like to see Gio, Ohtani and Trout in the playoffs. The Sox got some potential back. In the end it looks like nothing is changing in the Sox organization so we just need to wait for Reinsdorf to move to the angels as well.
After reading this lengthy thread and hearing all the FA names being debated it leaves me with one question.
Can anyone make a good argument for a player wanting to come here? I can’t. With the amount of money they make, I can’t see a guy volunteering for this shit show for a few shekels more. IT’s the Pedro factor. You’ll only get a guy nobody else views as quality.
Until upper management is gone, there’s one finger I think most FA’s will point at the phone when their agent tells them the White Sox called.
Seven years ago, the White Sox traded all of their valuable assets for a handful of magic beans. W e were promised that these magic beans would grow into a mighty beanstalk and win a championship within five years. Seven years and three managers have passed and now Rick Hahn is selling off these magic beans for more magic beans. Jerry Reinsdorf, continues to fiddle while Rome is engulfed in flames. And the never ending cycle of acquire, trade, white flag continues….