Blue Jays 5, White Sox 4: Swept for the season

Because the White Sox had to use their four best relievers even after seven shutout innings from Lance Lynn in the front end of this doubleheader, Pedro Grifol felt compelled to try Jesse Scholtens against the Toronto lineup for a third time with the White Sox holding a 3-2 lead through four.

History says this isn’t a choice that Grifol would normally make. Scholtens came into this game with six extended appearances for the White Sox, and he only faced more than 18 batters in one of them. Even then, he faced just 20 Tigers, even though Grifol could’ve taken the risk to have him complete five.

But with Gregory Santos, Kendall Graveman, Reynaldo López and Aaron Bummer all (presumedly) unavailable for the nightcap, Grifol had Keynan Middleton and a bunch of low-leverage options, and it wouldn’t make much sense to use Middleton with four more innings left to cover.

So Grifol gave Scholtens a shot, and he gave up singles to George Springer, Bo Bichette and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. to tie the game at 3. The hits were the ninth, 10th and 11th allowed by Scholtens on the evening, and that’s when Grifol came out to try somebody else.

Because Bryan Shaw stopped the bleeding with a double play and a groundout, this isn’t the reason the White Sox lost this game, just like they didn’t lose this game because Eddie Rodríguez made an ill-advised send of Seby Zavala all the way from first on an Andrew Benintendi double with nobody out in the third. But it reflects the ultra-slim margin for error the White Sox work with these days, when they’re down to three healthy starters and bullpen availability is trending in the wrong direction, too.

The non-Scholtens options faltered, too. After Zavala successfully crossed the plate after a one-out double on a run-scoring double play by Tim Anderson to help the White Sox regain the lead, Shaw gave it right back on Whit Merrifield’s second homer of the game. Nick Padilla handled the seventh and gave up a single to Bichette, followed by a run-scoring double that put the Blue Jays ahead 5-4.

Really, the game probably shouldn’t have been as close as it was, given the Sox were outhit 16-9. You can credit the White Sox’s less-secure pitchers for throwing strikes, because they didn’t issue a walk, and the Sox played sound defense behind them to eliminate some traffic. They turned two conventional double plays, Oscar Colás cut down Matt Chapman at third base on a tag-up attempt, and Zavala ran up to handle a throw from the outfield to catch Guerrero too far off second base.

But if you count a run-scoring double play as something closer to a missed opportunity, then the White Sox only had one successful flurry all night, and even that involved the out at home. Fortunately, Benintendi took third on the throw home, which lured the infield in on Anderson’s single through the left side, and Eloy Jiménez flipped a Yusei Kikuchi curveball over the right-field wall for a 3-1 lead after three.

That still left six innings to cover, and the Sox were outscored 4-1 over those.

Bullet points:

*The Blue Jays ran the table on the White Sox, finishing the season series 6-0.

*The White Sox fell to a season-worst 15 games under .500.

*Neither team drew a walk.

*Nate Pearson picked up his first career save, recording four outs on 11 pitches. He needed just four pitches to get the final three outs. Every ball put in play was over the middle of the zone, but they only resulted in three well-hit balls, each one a little closer to the warning track.

Record: 37-52 | Box score | Statcast

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And once again, on a sunny day in September August July, the White Sox are out of contention.

(Please imagine I was able to strike through the September and August parts for my clever comment.).

Ok I give up. Sell goddammit.

As Cirensica

Welcome to the club. Refreshments and stale cookies are on the table in the back. Over there to the left there is a Coleman thermos with reheated coffee. Members of the club can be found at the pub 2 blocks away from here. Enjoy your stay.


I gotta be honest: I’m a bit baffled by the ostensible giddiness of some ppl in regard to the imminent sell-off. Maybe I’m just over-presuming bc some ppl like to make the same statements multiple times per day/7 days a week on this site

But why are we so excited to sell? It’s a tacit endorsement of the same assclown who promised parades. It shouldn’t be cathartic.


I was advocating to stick it out. And part of me wants Hahn and company to stay status quo and go down with the ship. I’m still rooting for that 10 game win streak.

With that said, the reality is that teams will now make offers the Sox can’t refuse and the smart thing to do is to take those offers and retool.

And with THAT said, I don’t trust their acumen to bring back the best talent. But it is what it is.


I think people are excited because they were concerned (for good reason) that if we won a few more games Hahn might fail to accept reality (our team is bad) and hold onto the most valuable July trade chip in baseball (Giolito). We’ve all come to terms over these last 3 months with the fact that we have another protracted rebuild ahead of us and the shiny new prospect we get for Gio may be the most exciting Sox news we’ll see for years. Don’t take that away from us!!


How is it a tacit endorsement of Hahn? We want him to trade the team he built from the ground up in the culmination of the rebuild. It should be extremely embarrassing for Hahn.

And like Shaggy said: the shiny new prospect is what we have to look forward to at this point.


He is right that people are giving tacit endorsement.

I think the consensus of the site is Hahn is a failure. If we all agree that Hahn is a failure, then the only position you can take is needs to go immediately.
People shouldn’t be ok with him doing anything else for the organization if they view him as a failed GM. One can’t say Hahn is a failure, but hey lets have him make some trades. The two positions are mutually exclusive.

Last edited 2 months ago by dwjm3

Nah, they aren’t mutually exclusive. We all hope Hahn goes. But what if that doesn’t happen? We just hope he never makes another transaction? It’s completely compatible to hope (a) they fire Hahn and (b) Hahn makes good trades.

Analogously, consider how you might hope Presidential Candidate A loses. But once he wins, you can still hope he’s does good things for the country even if you’d prefer someone else be in charge.


Your analogy doesn’t make any sense. The Presidential candidate hasn’t taken the job yet in the scenario you layout, so it is ok to have hope that he might figure it out as he assumes the role. Hahn has a ten year track record of failure so one can’t have hope that this time is different. You are basically advocating for blind hope because you don’t want to accept the reality of what is in front of you. You can’t just keep giving him shots and praying this time is different.

The only thing we can do is demand he goes, and when Jerry likely doesn’t listen, we point out the stupidity of him continuing in the role once Hahn makes another mistake. (Similar how we operated with LaRussa)

Jerry is dumb enough to let this man do a third rebuild. We need to be firm as a fanbase that we won’t tolerate it. If Jerry then continues anyway we vote with our feet.

Last edited 2 months ago by dwjm3

Okay, so shift the analogy: we’ve had a President for 3 years who’s been terrible (and was a terrible governor before that). We can’t both hope (a) he doesn’t get reelected and (b) he does the best things for the country?

I hope JR sells the team. I hope Hahn gets fired. I hope Kenny gets fired. But, until all those things happen, I still hope good things happen for my favorite baseball team.


Hoping this time is different when there is a large body of failed work doesn’t make any sense. One can take that position, but it isn’t grounded in sound thinking. You are basically hoping for a miracle.

Augusto Barojas

Hahn got Gio and Dunning for Eaton. He may be a failed GM but it is possible for him to get something of value in a trade. It is inarguably better that they get something in return for Gio and Lynn than nothing. I mean, to showcase people’s disdain for Hahn, should they hope that they make no trades and get nothing for everybody leaving instead? I would call that completely stupid.

It’s not complicated. This team blows and doesn’t have a chance in hell of winning this year or the next. That was clear prior to the season according to half a dozen projection sites. Guys are leaving, you trade them to bolster the farm system, rather than ride it out and get nothing. There isn’t any argument to be made that they should keep Gio and Lynn and get nothing, unless people want to continue to be ridiculous and hold out hope that a team 15 games under .500 starts playing like a team with a much better roster. This is no tacit endorsement of anybody, just a simple acceptance that to make the best of things you trade guys who are leaving rather than get nothing out of spite.


No, we should push for immediate termination and have someone else make the trades. In fact, Hahn should have been gone two months ago. The new GM search already should have begun and an interim should be in the chair.

Generally speaking we advocate for the organization to be run in a proper fashion, and when Jerry does his usual nonsense we point out the flaws in his plan. I sort of dig it that Jerry is still trying to rationalize the LaRussa hiring through his mouthpiece Nightengale. It tells me it still pisses him off to this day that we were so vocal against that hiring.

Last edited 2 months ago by dwjm3
Augusto Barojas

I mean sure, given the choice I would fire Hahn yesterday. I don’t think a single person on here would disagree with that. But what fans want and what Jerry does are usually not compatible. In the meantime, they should trade Gio and Lynn while they can.

The only thing an individual fan can do is stop going to games, or paying for any kind of mlb or tv subscription. I’m not going to go somewhere to protest. The billboards are already up (I assume, I have never actually seen/heard confirmation of that). Jerry doesn’t care, and nothing any of us does is going to change that.


Agreed. Hahn is terrible but he’s been good at basically one thing: getting prospect talent in return for veterans. It’d be silly not to sell at this point.


And Reylo


Hahn’s rebuild failed. There was always that chance. In a business where results are obvious, Hahn should lose his job. It was his baby. That said, there is a qualifier, maybe two. The pandemic and LaRussa. Both caused a lot of disruption, one unavoidably and the other needlessly. Neither qualifier mitigates against the conclusion that the rebuild failed.


He may not have made sense as a manager, but La Russa’s teams won 93 and 81. This team is on pace to win 67. His hiring may have reflected organizational dysfunction, but it is less clear it was the cause of anything.

Last edited 2 months ago by JazznFunk

If the Sox aren’t going to win the division, I prefer the front office to be exposed to look like the incompetent buffoons they are by being totally humiliated. (Although from previous experience, I believe they may be impervious to humility or humiliation.)


We’re bored.

As Cirensica

It is not giddiness. It is fear. The White Sox currently have 9 players out of 13 current regulars poised to be back in 2024. That cannot happen.

Robert Jr.

You have 5 remaining slots to complement this ‘core’. That core is terrible. And most of it needs to be gone before 2024 begins. I would say that if 50% or more of the players above return in 2024, we are doomed.


I’d keep Robert and Benintendi from this group and Benny only because he’s done well at lead off. I don’t know any pitchers other than Cease that I’d keep and I’d trade him if the deal was real favorable. Course, we’re relying on Hahn to determine what’s favorable and what isn’t.

Augusto Barojas

They are doomed in 2024, and for a while, no matter what they do. You can’t overhaul a trainwreck of a roster overnight, not with Hahn doing the overhaul. Not even a good GM and an owner willing to spend could make this a good team in 2024. It’s a cumulative thing. They’ve done nothing for 3 straight offsseasons and let the team erode rather than bolster it to make it better. The earliest they would have a chance at being interesting again is 2025/6. That’s if Colas, Sosa, Montgomery, Mena, and Ramos impress, they let Tim and Yoan go, Kopech rebounds. I mean this is a terrible roster that can’t be fixed without a ton of changes up and down, including revamping an awful farm system. That will take years, and some intelligence and luck.

This team is a waste of time and energy until Jerry and Hahn are gone, really. I’d be surprised if they see a playoff series before 2030 honestly, unless Jerry dies pretty soon.

As Cirensica

I disagree. A good GM can retool around Robert, Benintendi, Cease, and Kopech. Look at the Rays. They only have two stars and one ace. Well, we have that. It is the surrounding players where Hahn has failed year after year after year. He is so incapable to put together a roster that does not subtract what good players bring.

Augusto Barojas

A good GM can retool, but not in a year or two. Not with this trainwreck and 3/5 of their rotation leaving, and only one position player projected to have a WAR over 2. Tampa has 6 position players already over 2 (projecting to over 4), with a 7th at 1.8. That’s 7 players way better than everybody on this sorry roster aside from Robert, and Franco is a stud. Is hilarious to compare to Tampa, they are better at literally every position but CF, and by a lot. Hence the 20 game difference in the standings, at all star break!

At any rate I think we all know trades are coming. Hopefully they bear some fruit, certainly Gio, Lynn, and Graveman would have value.

Last edited 2 months ago by Augusto Barojas

I do not want Hahn making any trades. He is utterly incompetent. If we’re screwed for the next few years anyway, then just keep everyone until it gets so embarrassing that Jerry has to fire Hahn. I think a 100-loss season in the middle of a contention window would be the ultimate embarrassment. Just stop following then until Hahn gets fired. He has to go now. As I said after they lost the first 2 to Oakland, fire him and let the new GM make trades. They would have had 1 month to hire someone. And anyone they hire would be able to evaluate this team better in 1 day than Hahn could in 10 years. FIRE HAHN NOW.

Last edited 2 months ago by roke1960
Augusto Barojas

It is crystal clear that trades are coming, no matter who their GM is. I don’t think anybody would disagree that Hahn should be replaced immediately. But unless it’s Jim Click, it’s likely to be the Pedro Grifol of GM’s anyway.

In any case they’re not going to escape Jerry’s desire to cut payroll with 24th ranked attendance and fan sentiment at an all time low. Trades are coming, via Hahn or someone else, whether anybody likes it or not.


Yeah, I know you’re right, I just see Hahn getting taken by any competent GM. I’m sure he is overvaluing his players since he has done that from the start. So no one will pay what he is asking. Then at the deadline, Jerry will force him to unload the expiring contracts and a good GM will play Hahn like a fiddle.

Augusto Barojas

GM’s can’t play Hahn if they are competing against each other. Gio is the best player likely to be dealt. Hahn won’t have to call anybody, teams will be calling him. He will surely get multiple offers. Gio can make a big difference to a team in contention. If Lynn has another good start or two, same with him. I think they’ll get something of value for those two, and Graveman, we’ll see. Rangers or Dodgers would be good trade partners with a lot of talent to give.


I agree with that. Gio is probably the most valuable potential trade piece at this deadline, unless the Cardinals offer Goldschmidt. But it’s obvious that Hahn had overvalued these players. He certainly won’t get what he wants for Gio. And when it gets to the deadline and the pressure from Jerry to sell gets great, he will likely panic. I don’t trust Hahn to make good deals at all. He should get a top 100 prospect for Giolito, since so many teams will be in on him. But I don’t have any confidence that he will.


Your analysis is excellent. The only competitive players based on W/L record are in A ball. Hahn has to trade Gio, Lynn and maybe TA for the best fast and athletic AAA players to fill the gaps right now and clean out the rest of the roster in the off season. There won’t be winning for a while but maybe some new exciting guys will get our minds off the current group of underachievers as they depart.


Personally I’m giddy because I hate this collection of players.

Terrible offensive approach. Swing at everything. No walks

Pitchers who walk everybody. With a special talent at walking 8/9 hitters.

Horrible defense

Horrible baserunning

Horrible decision making that indicates they might have never watched a game in their life

Injury prone. Toughness or bad luck? Maybe a combo. Doesn’t matter anymore

So when you wrap all that up you get a team that simply will not ever win or entertain us. Every step they take with this roster is in the wrong direction. I don’t even care if it’s Hahn doing the selling. This team is a bucket of hot garbage on a humid summer day.

Yolmer's gatorade

I’m kind of a sap, but I’m looking forward to August and September. Trade all expiring contracts, DFA Andrus and maybe Grandal, and empty Charlotte. In my mind, that team still has a very small chance to catch the Twins just because the Twins ain’t nothing. The offense has been awful but kind of making strides too. Maybe once the team has less to play for, they will buy into what the coaches are selling and at least look interesting. I’d like to see how Pedro and company do with younger players with something to prove and not veterans upset they aren’t on a winning team.


It’s not an endorsement of Hahn to want to sell. It’s the opposite. Hahn thought and promised last offseason that a managerial change and a couple roster tweaks would make this team a contender again, and that he wasn’t the problem. That’s clearly been proven wrong. Insinuating that they just need a few more roster tweaks and a new hitting coach or pitching coach would be another promise from Hahn that the core premise of this team is sound, which it is clearly not.

Shingos Cheeseburgers

The White Sox now have something in common with the German 6th Army at Vimy Ridge: getting comprehensively routed by Canadians.


Gotta say, having Nightengale go on what’s essentially the team’s official podcast and name players who he’d be “shocked” were still on the team and blaming the team’s struggles on a toxic clubhouse on a day of a double header certainly did wonders.

Really felt like Jerry buried this team after listening to that.


Just listened to that, interesting to hear it especially the “Jerry wants to win and would never have signed off on a rebuild if he knew this was the product” talk about incompetence.

Regardless, think Nightengale is right and we will wee Gio, Lynn, Clevinger, Kelley, Graveman, go. Am really curious to see if any position players move.

Last edited 2 months ago by JazznFunk
Augusto Barojas

He mentions 6 players, the 5 that Rambler mentions and Bummer, and that he would be shocked if any did not get traded. I’d be shocked if any team wanted Bummer, and I doubt anybody will be asking for Clevinger given his baggage and proneness to injury. Kelly hasn’t been completely awful but can’t be worth too much either being on the DL.

But Gio, Lynn, and Graveman should definitely be worth something. I think someone might kick the tires on TA as well.

As Cirensica

I guess the 3 catchers depth strategy isn’t working out.

Root Cause

The NASCAR version of the white sox would have the car lurching forward in turn 2, almost out of gas, two tires look flat, and the driver is intoxicated. The owners are playing cards unaware that it’s Sunday. Three of five pit crew members have an air wrench but no jackman or fuel can. Discussions are taking place to sell the new tires and cash for recaps. Rumor is that they are looking for more air wrenches. The lead reporter says that they may have located an outlet for the air compressor. The crew chief is behind the trailer trying to decide which extension cord to use, two prongs or three. I know- it sounds unbelievable.

Last edited 2 months ago by Root Cause

This is what a bad org looks like: The GM says we need a reason to believe in this team then team proceeds to get swept with the loses being another example of bad team baseball. Nothing compliments each other on 35th and shields, its just a collection of people who don’t know what winning culture is and lacks any teaching ability to maximize players outside of what they bring to the table naturally. And we know that doesnt have a long shelf life of success…hence why the Sox have a history of decent starts(sans this year and the rebuild years) and then falls apart quickly. At least that is one theory to why the “projection models” used by this team fall short…oh and of course everything else about the franchise