The algorithms are abandoning the White Sox

Through the first four months of the season, the passing of each unimpressive week failed to put a thorough dent in the White Sox’s postseason projections. The Sox had three things in their favor:

  1. A weak division
  2. The Central’s strongest collection of individual track records
  3. A front-loaded schedule

Whether you trusted the White Sox’s talent or the lack of talent elsewhere, the White Sox might’ve only needed one strong fortnight to wrest control of the division and never get it back.

It turns out that it’s hard to build winning streaks when you’re committed to losing every opening game of a series. We’ve also learned that in order for the weakest remaining schedule to matter, you have to beat up on those teams. They’ve instead gone 8-8 against this 19-game stretch of games against teams under .500, including losing three of four to the Royals.

Tim Anderson’s six-week absence also hurts in this department. He was in the small group of hitters within shouting distance of the back of his baseball card. Even after taking his flaws into account, he’s a better candidate to start games than Leury García (whose right leg could be an issue) and Lenyn Sosa (whose learning curve against MLB pitching looks steep).

Add it all up, and the formerly favorable projections have taken a beating this week.

FanGraphs’ projected standings paint a bleak picture:

And if you think they only have a path to the postseason through the division, FanGraphs now puts that probability at 20.5 percent, down from 40 percent 10 days ago.

PECOTA, which has had the White Sox even with the Twins atop the Central for most of the time they’ve been trailing them, now has the White Sox a distinct third, albeit only by a couple of games:

  1. Cleveland, 85-77
  2. Minnesota, 83-79
  3. White Sox: 82-80

The postseason (33.1 percent) and divisional (20.2) probabilities are just about the same.

FiveThirtyEight is the most bullish of the systems, but Tom Fornelli has been charting the White Sox’s slow decline of October likelihood over the course of the season …

… and it took a sudden dip this past week.

With the White Sox 3½ games back of Cleveland and 1½ behind Minnesota, they can still say they control their own destiny, even if that destiny requires them to maximize head-to-head opportunities against the teams in front of them.

But while they’d naturally say that games are played on the field and not on spreadsheets, they’re already staging their own debate over intangibles regarding the concept of “fire.”

Following Wednesday’s meltdown, Johnny Cueto said they lacked it:

Tony La Russa tried to provide evidence to the contrary:

La Russa has lauded his team’s “fight” and “guts” throughout the season, and he strongly defended them after Thursday’s loss as he often does. As for lacking fire, he pointed to a slick double play turned by second baseman Josh Harrison and rookie shortstop Lenyn Sosa behind Cueto.

“How did that happen?” La Russa said. “They weren’t fired up?”

Daryl Van Schouwen relayed quotes from Lucas Giolito and Andrew Vaughn that seemed to indicate that Cueto wasn’t wrong, and it’s also coming only a few days after José Abreu said his effort was the only thing he could control.

I try not to get wrapped up in discussions about fire or its relatives (urgency, effort, intensity), just because it distracts from more crucial issues. I always think about the years that Reynaldo López talked about addressing his poor results with increased focus, only to realize that he literally couldn’t see well. After two eye surgeries, he’s been able to contribute quite a bit more.

In this case, we knew that Rick Hahn failed to address issues like a righty-heavy offense that struggles to pull the ball in the air, or a defense playing too many guys out of position. Andrew Vaughn wasn’t outplayed by Nate Eaton in Kauffman’s corners this past series because of a lack of desire. Andrew Vaughn simply can’t run like an outfielder should.

But I’ll say that isn’t great when a veteran calls out his team for a lack of fire, and the manager seems more interested in sweeping it under the rug or turning it into a debate about the concept of fire itself. There’s really only one conversation that I’m interested involving the words “Tony La Russa” and “fire,” but the White Sox aren’t going to have that one until after the season, if ever.

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Jim Margalus
Jim Margalus

Writing about the White Sox for a 16th season, first here, then at South Side Sox, and now here again. Let’s talk curling.

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Phillies are 39-19 after ridding themselves of Joe Girardi on June 3rd. The Blue Jays were 4 over .500 when they made their change; 4 weeks later, their record is now 10 over.

The White Sox have been around .500 all year. A few games above, a few games below, it really doesn’t matter.

Who says a manager isn’t important.

Unless we rid ourselves of TLR, I cannot imagine many season ticket holders renewing their tickets for next year. This is the only thing that will get Mr. Reinsdorf’s attention. While it is unlikely he will relieve TLR of his duties on the morning of October 6th, we must hope that Tony will have figured it out himself, and have the humility to step down.

We can only hope at this time.


It’s cute that you think Reinsdorf cares about season ticket sales. Isn’t all the money coming from cable deals? So those not renewing their tickets will watch more games at home. Win-win. (And we lose)


People fixate on LaRussa too much in my view.

I agree that he is a mediocre coach, but with Jerry and Hahn in charge the coach is the least of our worries. An elite manager would not win a world series with this roster.

We really need to Jerry to jack up the payroll a lot further to win with Hahn as GM. I just don’t see it happening. We are screwed with or without Tony.

Last edited 3 months ago by dwjm3

I have to disagree with that. The players tend to take on the personality of their manager. Do you think Ozzie would have let Robert get away with the lack of hustle yesterday and at several other times in the recent past? There seems to be no accountability on this team. Cueto, being a relatively new guy, must be amazed at their lack of fire if he mentioned it. And the end of his quote- “if we have any”- was really telling. I think the players that have been there for awhile have just fallen into a complacent rut, because they know Tony’s going nowhere. Even Jose said he can only control what he does- that doesn’t sound like a real leader to me. He’s probably tried, but when the manager keeps talking about how much fight and fire they have, his words probably fall on deaf ears. But, to me, it all comes back to the sleepy, arrogant manager. Until he’s gone, this team will never have the fire it needs to win.


Ozzie also hasn’t managed in years either. One of the knocks on LaRussa was he hadn’t been in the dugout for years. There is no basis to claim Ozzie would be better.


I’d vote Margalus for manager, but you’ve never done anything bad enough to deserve that headache.


I fully agree. The only way to fix this mess is to go completely out of the organization for GM and manager. Anyone who has played for the Sox in the Kenny Williams era should be off limits.


I am not saying Ozzie should be managing the team. And yes, the Ozzie of the last few years of his tenure was a disgrace. But if someone on the 2005-2006 teams didn’t hustle, Ozzie would not have let them get away with it. I agree Ozzie shot himself in the foot with his fight with Kenny, but he was a very good manager the first several years.

As Cirensica

I agree with this.

Augusto Barojas

I agree. I wouldn’t defense Ozzie as their best choice. But I’ll take basically any functioning adult over the Russa. Of course they should get a good manager (Ned Yost?), but I’ll take literally anybody at this point as long as it’s not Tony. It would be at least a marginal improvement.


Here-here, thank you for saying such.


You didn’t say anything about his ability to manage a MLB team successfully. Ozzie was miles better than Ditka. Ozzie coached a team of mostly ordinary talent to a title. Ditka held maybe the most talented group of players ever to one title.

Right Size Wrong Shape

Nice spin. Look at how that starting rotation performed, especially in the playoffs. Not sure Ozzie gets to take a lot of credit for that. Ditka won a Super Bowl with Jim McMahon.

See, I can do it too.


They are the only two coaches to win a title for the Sox or Bears since I was 3 years old. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for both of them.


I don’t know if I’m remember correctly, but didn’t Rick Renteria bench players for not hustling and getting ripped for it because “you only do that in the minors.


By the end of his tenure, I hated Ozzie and would have sworn that I would never want him back. But I’m going with Roke1960 here in a pure thought exercise because nothing on this team is actually going to change. But I would be in favor of Ozzie as an interim manager. He is familiar with this team and could hit the ground running, unlike, for example, Joe Espada who would be a viable candidate in October.. Ozzie knows how Tony has screwed up, and he would be inclined to do the opposite. (Robert hustling, for example.) And his intensity might well cause a change in the performance of the existing roster. It’s their only shot in 2022. However, at the end of the year, if they decide to make a change, no Ozzie, no AJ. Then I want Joe Espada or someone like him.


You didn’t disagree with the point. I stated an elite coach wouldn’t win a World Series with this roster. I didn’t say this team couldn’t be marginally improved with a different manager.

I honestly think some of you are playing right into Jerry’s hand. I think you will spend the offseason bitching about LaRussa instead of putting all the focus on Hahn’s failures with roster construction and Jerry’s lack of spending.

LaRussa is going to become a shield for those two guys thanks to some elements of this fanbase.

Last edited 3 months ago by dwjm3
As Cirensica

La Russa is the easiest problem to solve, far from being the only one.


Considering Jerry’s track record of coaching hires, I don’t think any of these problems are easy to solve. He will likely make another crappy hire. I think you are forgetting his track record.

Augusto Barojas

The Sox have multiple problems. Everybody criticizes the Russa, but it isn’t like Hahn’s failures and lack of spending have been lost on anybody as well.

People can say that a good manager would not win a WS with this team, which is true. It’s probably equally true that Tony would not win even if god forbid he actually had a championship roster to work with. Tony needs to go, yesterday, AND they need to construct and spend on a different roster.

We’re probably screwed, as you said, but way more screwed with Tony than without.


You mean like John Fox was the shield for Ryan Pace? Does this mean Rick Hahn gets a contract extension too?


The Bears organization is a different dynamic. The Bears fire general managers all the time. They don’t cling to them like Jerry does. George is a crappy owner as well, but he is a different animal than Jerry.

Right Size Wrong Shape

The same guy hires all of the general managers though, and his only qualification seems to be that he is loyal to the McCaskeys.


I have been on board with getting rid of Hahn for 5 years- he’s awful. His roster construction is terrible. He was lauded for his great trades of Sale and Q, getting Moncada and Eloy, but now even those two are very questionable going forward. At this point of the season, the object is to make the playoffs. The quickest move to make to help that is to fire Tony and Menechino. Then Hahn should be gone at the end of the year.


The White Sox are 7th in all of baseball in payroll. The payroll could be higher, sure. But that is not the problem. There’s nothing wrong with running a $190-200m payroll for where this team is at. It’s how they’ve spent it, and who they’ve put in charge, that’s the problem.

Augusto Barojas

The payroll is an illusion. It’s one year. They were 15th last year, 20th the year before, and 26th prior to that. They have not given a single free agent a contract even half what the Cubs gave Lester almost a decade ago. THAT is the problem. They have a mediocre team largely because they sign mediocre free agents. Every flipping year.

Last edited 3 months ago by Augusto Barojas

I grant that if the payroll only stays this high for one year, that’s a problem.

But my point is that with this year’s team, the amount of money spent is not the problem. If games were decided by who had the higher payroll, the White Sox would be 96-16 right now.

Again, I’m not saying they’ve spent the money well. And, sure, I’m always going to wish they’d spend more. But there’s no way payroll is the #1 problem on the 2022 white Sox or even close.

Augusto Barojas

The greater point is that they haven’t spent money on good free agents. Zero. That is the roster part of what this team needs, and why the rebuild has basically been left unfinished. They go from “being in on Machado” to not one contract even half the size of Lester’s. In three years.

Signing good free agents requires multi year deals which Hahn is forbidden to give out. As Trooper and many have pointed out, THAT is the problem. Even with a better manager, this roster isn’t going deep in the playoffs this October, or any other. Calling Reinsdorf cheap and gutless because of that seems pretty spot on. He doesn’t get a free pass from that even with a 7th ranked payroll, when Grandal remains the biggest free agent they’ve signed the entire rebuild – and will be gone after next season anyway. This team is where it is first and foremost because Jerry is CHEAP. Period.


Contrast that to 2-3 years ago when Jose was actively mentoring Robert, Yoan and Eloy.

People assume he’s going to resign here, but I don’t see it. Nothing he’s said or done indicates that he wants to stick around here. Definitely nothing in the realm of the “I’ll sign myself if I have to” quotes from before the 2020 season.


Good point. Abreu’s personality today is in stark contrast to 2020 Abreu. You have to wonder what’s really going on behind the scenes. Has Abreu changed his tune because TLR has another yet left on his deal? Is he tired of losing? Would he have welcomed a trade to a contender this year? Who knows….


One of my curiosities on part of this theme is the strategy to give out four contracts to players who had really yet to prove themselves completely. I say completely meaning intangibles and tangibles. Maybe Mr. Margalus can delve into how many teams in the last 50-years have opted to reward up and coming talent with contracts to extend their window of contention as was done with Anderson, Jimenez, Moncada, and Robert. The Cleveland Indians back in the 90’s GM’ed by John Hart and managed by Mike Hargrove come to mind with locking up a group of young talent to secure a very healthy run of playoff appearances. Maybe that was the only notable occurrence and while they attained two World Series, they won neither. Thus far Anderson is the only one of the four mentioned Sox players to really achieve some things (.335 batting title, Silver Slugger, and two All Star appearances) to say it was worth the risk. But his distractions (intangibles) might suggest he was not. I suggest immaturity added to management rationale that his story and marketability is more compelling than leadership are worth the headache. Think back to Chis Sale’s immaturity and how that played overall to fans and management. And other than Moncada’s .315 and Jimenez’s 31 HRs – both in 2019, these three have largely not given much return on investment. Did these four perhaps require a bit more minor league seasoning? Not that more minor league seasoning would result in hustling out ground balls, styling with fancy throws rather than basis fundamentals. I guess that would depend on the teacher’s message. I also wonder what would have happened had they let Renteria remain. I could be uninformed but he didn’t seem loathed by the players when they were held accountable. Rather, and this is the part that rubs fans raw, we were treated to the return of RaLussa.
I have never been a fan of the overly angry manager/coach personality often prescribed by Chicago fans and admonished by Margulus in this same thread. It’s a Chicago phenomenon. Rather top-down organizational structure leads to success. It is why the same teams, no matter the sport, appear in the playoffs and championships more often than, say, the White Sox, Cubs, Bears, etc. That is not to say some structural hierarchy at the micro level in the clubhouse is a bad thing. That is where a badass like Kirk Gibson or to some extent the sometimes kooky Carl Everett (remember the Truthasaurus) can and will keep younger guys in line – but in the confines of the clubhouse. I am not sure that element exists in today’s baseball. Too many whiners and wimps IMHO that would melt under such tutelage.


No one on these boards really complained at the time when these contract extensions were given. On the contrary many were clamoring for a Yoan extension. With that being said, the extensions give the Sox payroll assurance, and room for the Sox to come out on top if they produce.


TLR is a boring, weird manager who doesn’t seem to care. Watching sports and following a team should be fun, and he kind of strips that aspect away for me.

As Cirensica

I honestly think the White Sox win this division easily if they get rid of their manager TODAY.

I think TLR is dragging this team down.
He robs hustle and the intensity.
He robs the fun.
He instills apathy

More than 100 games in, and Tony has not found the consistent lineup. He is a tinkerer (and not in a good way). He keeps tinkering lineups with dubious decisions. Just grab any box score and you will find something weird. An underperforming LH hitter playing when the opponent has a LHP starter, and then benched him the next day when the opponent uses a RHP starter. Playing a catcher in 1B when he has like 5 first basemen at his disposal. Playing the aforementioned first basemen in the outfield Horrendous bullpen management. Long hooks. Over resting players to keep them fresh and yet everybody is limping, hurt or whatever. Even Leury is now hurt. He broke Leury!!!!

The list goes on and on.

The White Sox have a lot of problems, but firing the manager is the only one that can be implemented now, and honestly, it is the easiest to solve.

Last edited 3 months ago by As Cirensica

Very well said!!

Augusto Barojas

I agree on the last sentence especially. They would almost undoubtedly be in first place if any ordinary baseball person was managing. But that leaves them with about the same team, and same chances in October as the last two years.

If they want to win a WS, or come close, they need to get rid of La Clown, and make some serious changes to a roster that has two flaws that probably make it impossible for any manager in history to win a championship:

  1. awful, league worst defense
  2. piss poor hitting against even mediocre right handed starters

I don’t see any World Series teams with those qualities, not the Braves last year, or any of the not-best-in-the-league teams that have ever won it. You need to catch the baseball, and be able to hit the kind of pitching that is the majority of what you will face in October. The “just make the playoffs, anything can happen” mentality is exactly why this team is where it is. It hasn’t and won’t work, not with those flaws. They need a better roster without weaknesses so blatant that they stand virtually no chance in a 5 or 7 game series against anybody they would face in October. And for Tony to be gone, yesterday.

Augusto Barojas

“the humility to step down”. Humility, I’m afraid, is a quality the Russa does not possess.


My headache is almost completely gone since Ozzie last managed the Sox. That guy never f***in shut up for a damn second.


If they don’t make the playoffs, Tony will quietly walk away and they’ll be tasked with building a team for ’23 with a $125mil payroll.
If they do make the playoffs, they’ll get crushed in the first round and we’ll have the same flawed team and terrible manager back next year.
Either way, no fun.


Outside of the Rockies, is there a more dysfunctional organization right now? I imagine the Org. hierarchy chart looks like Charlie’s “Pepe Sylvia” chart in It’s Always Sunny….


Good point on Colorado. At least we have the hope that surely the octogenarian “leading” this business cannot be immortal. The Monforts are considerably younger.


Yes. Young Ilitch is weird and unsucessful, but the only outside hire of consequence he has made was a recent World Series-winning manager. That should reassure Tigers fans anticipating Avila’s successor more that the Monforts promoting Schmidt or Reinsdorf always keeping the GM & manager positions in the family.


For me, this rebuild has been much like what the Reds recently attempted.
Although with slightly better results.


I don’t know about dysfunction across the board. But the Angels have been a pretty big failure. Consistently unable to add around Trout and then Ohtani or build a farm system

Greg Nix

I don’t know who TLR’s watching, but at no point this season have I seen a lick of “fire” from this team. Not even sparks, really.

This is what you get when your manager has 40 years of canned media answers locked and loaded. This guy has truly been so much worse than I could have imagined.


I thought the MN series before the break was a good example of playing with intensity


Nope. They just won 3 of 4. It masks.


Yeah it’s pretty hilarious that TLR is more offended by Cueto calling out their lack of fire than the team he manages getting their asses handed to them over and over by a bunch of crappy teams.


White Sox fans and the organization have to stop thinking that the only available managers are former-White Sox players/staff.


Is Nancy available? If she paid attention all those years she couldn’t be all bad?


This whole Ozzie discussion reminds me of something someone recently said to me about a political candidate running for state office: “he might be an asshole, but at least he’s OUR asshole.”

Would I rather that Ozzie be manager versus Tony? Well, duh. But honestly there is a whole world of candidates out there. Hire one.

I bet Wally Backman would take the job if offered and at least his schtick would seem new and fresh to Sox fans for a while. Couldn’t be worse than what we have, or than 2011 Ozzie.


La Russa has been terrible – stipulated – but I’m not sure that absolves the individual players of their responsibility to play hard and do whatever they can to win games. Pick a sports movie analogy – leave TLR in the locker room a la Varsity Blues, or win to spite management a la Major League, or openly call for the manager to be fired a la NBA superstar culture (okay, that one’s not a movie) – but at some point the players are accepting what’s going on. Maybe they figure if management doesn’t care they don’t have to (Office Space) or maybe it’s so bad they feel justified pissing in the proverbial soup (Waiting) – both understandable if not defensible positions – but every work place I’ve ever been a part of has had superstars that could overcome bad management and it’s sad to see that the Sox apparently can’t or aren’t interested in doing so.

The individuals players can’t do anything about Vaughn playing the outfield or a slow hook on the starting pitcher, but they can be disciplined at the plate and on the base paths and focused on defense. TLR doesn’t make it easy but fans have $190 million reasons to expect better.



I have worked in some crappy/dysfunctional environments…but the only thing anyone can really control is their own level of effort. I don’t begrudge any of these guys feeling down, discouraged, or frustrated. I don’t need to see them smiling in the dugout. Hell, I don’t think they should look like they are having fun when they are hovering around .500…

…But you have to show up every day and give it your best. That’s the thing you can control.

Last edited 3 months ago by soxygen

Others have said this in the comments, but I will just echo it: I don’t think Tony is the club’s only problem but I do think it is the easiest to fix. Tony has not been getting the most out of this deeply flawed roster and he has not been putting guys in the best position to succeed. There is no reason he should continue to be manager of this team.


My personal analysis:

Turd manager.
Turd general manager.
Turd owner.
Turd spending in free agency.
Turd defense.
Turd scouting.
Turd hustle.
Turd hitting.

Augusto Barojas

You obviously put a great deal of thought into that, thank you.


Pat Foley read this list and thinks the White Sox are in great shape.


So the only possible outcome is Turd place…

As Cirensica

Hey Jim, thanks for the articles. I have been wondering over the gamethreads, and maybe this is a question for the POBox (feel free to answer it on you weekly mailbag).

I was wondering what kind of harmony exist between Hahn and La Russa. I wonder if they speak to each other at all. I can’t stop noticing that you don’t see interactions between them or pictures of them together in the press. Hahn almost never makes references to the manager in first person. He does not attack him but he does not praise him either. Do you think there is some sort of dysfunctional relationship here or I am reading too much into it?

Alfornia Jones

TLR is a major reason for failure, and his hire is a stain on the franchise. That said, the roster is not functional. This is what the GM gave the manager:

1) Five 1B/Dh types with three of them forced to play outfield.
2) Leury for three more years
3) Kimbrell option – now really expensive 4th outfielder (of which there are now two RH 4th outfielders)
4) joe Kelly

Couple that with an inexplicable ability to hit HR or score runs and not many managers would be able to overcome such a colossal meltdown.

If the response is Hahn was forced to make all those moves by TLR and the org, then he’s a stooge and needs to be fired even worse. It’s the GM’s job to build a cohesive roster and he didn’t do it. A 3rd place finish should eliminate everyone from TLR up, and they all need to go regardless of their finish.

75% of the roster is good enough. Hire competent people to finish the job.


I think Tony will probably walk away at the end of the year. I believe he came back to A) move past John McGraw on the all-time list; and B) become the first manager to win the World Series with 3 different clubs.

A was quickly achieved. B looked well within reach with the roster he inherited. Surprise! The roster is flawed. Squeezing extra wins out of it is harder than he remembered.

I don’t think he’s enjoying himself. The future doesn’t look terribly promising. Yes, everyone could get healthy, but the Guardians and Twins figure to contend again next year. So why subject himself to all the attendant shit that goes with the grind of a major league season? I think he’ll cite family or health and walk away.

BUT, if they squeak into the playoffs and maybe win a series, that might be enough to whet his appetite for just one more go. “We’re so close!”


I agree completely. That’s why it’s a tough thing for us lifelong Sox fans- what is better for the future of the club? I’m pretty sure that a less than .500 season will cause Tony to “retire”. That would be great for the Sox future prospects. But I still want to see them win this year and have a chance to ride Cease, Cueto, Hendriks and others to a 3-week hot streak in the playoffs. But that becomes less and less likely with each passing day. And you’re right, if they do make the playoffs and win the first round 3-game set at home, they may think, “Yeah, we keep getting closer. Let’s run this back again next year.” That would not be good. Anything short of a World Series appearance should cause a complete housecleaning of the front office/manager.

Augusto Barojas

This team hasn’t had a 3 week hot streak in 2 years I’m pretty sure. Certainly not in 2022.


Yep, not since early 2021. So maybe they’re due!! That’s just me being delusional.


One potential flaw in your “hot streak” idea, they can’t score any runs.

If you face the White Sox in the first round of the playoffs, throw 3 right handers that have played baseball before and you’re pretty much assured a low scoring game.


That’s why you fire Menechino right now and start trying to hit home runs again.


Fire Menechino and bring back Walt Hriniak. Double down on septuagenarians.

Nellie Fox

Hahn did nothing at the trade line to Improve the team, that includes not hiring a new manager. This season is a bust but it starts at the top.


Btw deadline trades:

Whit Merrifield for BJs – .286/.318 ops .604
David Peralta for Rays – .303 ops .667
Tommy Pham for Bosox – 3 HR ops .832
Tyler Naquin for Mets – 3 HR 1.254 ops 242 ops+

oh and Reese McGuire for Bosox .895 ops 151 ops+


They need to rip up the entire front office. Kenny, Rick, and Tony all need to go. Jerry needs to sell as well but that’s not happening. They need to overhaul ML scouting and player development. The only two employees I can think of who have a compelling reason to stay are Marco Paddy and Ethan Katz. And the only one I’d be truly upset about losing is Paddy.

Stop hiring and retaining people because they have some past connection to the organization and start actually holding people accountable for failure. Stop employing the same people who either tolerate or are completely incapable of filling obvious roster holes. Rick lets holes at DH, 2B, and RF linger the same way Kenny would let holes in the rotation and 2B sink potential division winners when he was GM. I’m not interested in parsing between Rick and Kenny because they are from the same cloth. I don’t want to hear about payroll constraints because this front office is incapable of operating successfully with Jerry’s budget. They don’t draft/sign and develop well and they are awful in free agency.

2005 was 17 years ago and they have 6 winning seasons (including a 60 game season) and 3 playoff wins since then. Get rid of all of them.