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	<title>Comments on: Fourth anniversary, fourth plan</title>
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	<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/</link>
	<description>A Chicago White Sox blog</description>
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		<title>By: fundman</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-895</link>
		<dc:creator>fundman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-895</guid>
		<description>So the real question is what metric you use to measure success.  For the John Sickle addicts, it&#039;s simply a matter of how you rank in terms of producing talent and you leave winning a championship to chance.  I can accept that as someone who thinks a bit about the game, but as a fan, I&#039;d trade a lot of lousy years for 2005.  The question is obviously how much credit a GM deserves for a World Series.  Didn&#039;t Shapiro win Exec of the year in &#039;05?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the real question is what metric you use to measure success.  For the John Sickle addicts, it&#8217;s simply a matter of how you rank in terms of producing talent and you leave winning a championship to chance.  I can accept that as someone who thinks a bit about the game, but as a fan, I&#8217;d trade a lot of lousy years for 2005.  The question is obviously how much credit a GM deserves for a World Series.  Didn&#8217;t Shapiro win Exec of the year in &#8216;05?</p>
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		<title>By: bigfun</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-894</link>
		<dc:creator>bigfun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-894</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m talking about cheaply acquired talent, and many of the guys you list are the same ones I mentioned in my first post. Rios, Peavy, and Beckham were acquired at full price (in terms of talent, money, and draft position, respectively). That&#039;s not wholly a bad thing on its own, but the team needs to acquire more underappreciated talent too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m talking about cheaply acquired talent, and many of the guys you list are the same ones I mentioned in my first post. Rios, Peavy, and Beckham were acquired at full price (in terms of talent, money, and draft position, respectively). That&#8217;s not wholly a bad thing on its own, but the team needs to acquire more underappreciated talent too.</p>
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		<title>By: bigfun</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-893</link>
		<dc:creator>bigfun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-893</guid>
		<description>How are those guys &quot;almost everyone that matters&quot;? Those guys couldn&#039;t even get to .500 in 2009.

The White Sox are not a 90-win team that just needs a bit of tinkering to push them over the top. They need more guys who matter, and the most efficient way to get those guys is to develop them in the minors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How are those guys &#8220;almost everyone that matters&#8221;? Those guys couldn&#8217;t even get to .500 in 2009.</p>
<p>The White Sox are not a 90-win team that just needs a bit of tinkering to push them over the top. They need more guys who matter, and the most efficient way to get those guys is to develop them in the minors.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Margalus</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-891</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Margalus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-891</guid>
		<description>I hesitate to say too much, because Williams has one more postseason appearance than Shapiro in his career.  KW has had a few seasons where his team just doesn&#039;t get its act together.  There isn&#039;t that much separation when it comes to winning the division.

I&#039;d say the biggest difference is how the team develops starting pitching.  Neither team has drafted dynamic starters, but the Indians have let their Broadways rise to the top and fill out the rotation, whereas the Sox have looked outside the organization.

Williams had his moment of truth with the scouting department in getting rid of Shaffer.  Shapiro might trust the process too much instead of the results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hesitate to say too much, because Williams has one more postseason appearance than Shapiro in his career.  KW has had a few seasons where his team just doesn&#8217;t get its act together.  There isn&#8217;t that much separation when it comes to winning the division.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say the biggest difference is how the team develops starting pitching.  Neither team has drafted dynamic starters, but the Indians have let their Broadways rise to the top and fill out the rotation, whereas the Sox have looked outside the organization.</p>
<p>Williams had his moment of truth with the scouting department in getting rid of Shaffer.  Shapiro might trust the process too much instead of the results.</p>
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		<title>By: theghostofmansoolee</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-890</link>
		<dc:creator>theghostofmansoolee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-890</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t know what the financial situation is for the club (I imagine not too good), Reinsdorf has shown a willingness to spend extra in exchange for better quality on the field. With arbitration and other minor deals you probably go somewhere near $100M (probably a tad above), but revenue from making the playoffs would likely offset a spillover. The lineup above, if it materializes, would certainly improve the odds of a postseason appearance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t know what the financial situation is for the club (I imagine not too good), Reinsdorf has shown a willingness to spend extra in exchange for better quality on the field. With arbitration and other minor deals you probably go somewhere near $100M (probably a tad above), but revenue from making the playoffs would likely offset a spillover. The lineup above, if it materializes, would certainly improve the odds of a postseason appearance.</p>
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		<title>By: jimbo</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-889</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-889</guid>
		<description>The glaring flaw in your super-magical plan is you are way over budget. Your proposed starting lineup along with Buehrle and Peavy is around $95M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The glaring flaw in your super-magical plan is you are way over budget. Your proposed starting lineup along with Buehrle and Peavy is around $95M.</p>
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		<title>By: theghostofmansoolee</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-888</link>
		<dc:creator>theghostofmansoolee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-888</guid>
		<description>Striker, 

I think you keep Nix as a &quot;utility infielder&quot; and deal Getz (though my sentimental preference is for players like Chris). Nix has some pop, which could be useful, though my understanding is that he&#039;s an average/subpar fielder.

Assuming that all those moves pan out (suspend your disbelief here), the lineup card would look like this:

Crawford, LF 
Hudson, 2B
Bobby Abreu RF
TCQ/Konerko 1B
Thome/Konerko, DH
Beckham, 3B
AJ, C 
Rios, CF
Ramirez, SS

The glaring flaw for my super-magical plan is that you end up with a situation in which you have to juggle Quentin, Konerko, Thome and Abreu between RF, 1B and DH (when Thome and Konerko can&#039;t play RF, while Q and Abreu don&#039;t have much experience playing 1B). Though I suppose it should not be a given that all these guys will stay healthy all year, I think this situation likely means Konerko needs to be shipped unless they all manage to hold hands, sing kumbaya and accept that they will all see reduced playing time. 

It may be slightly easier to move Pauly at this point, as he&#039;s in the last year of the contract. But the Sox would have to eat a lot of the $12 million due to him, manage to get him to sign off on a trade and then try to get something decent in return. He probably still holds some value, but I don&#039;t think the return would be exceptional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Striker, </p>
<p>I think you keep Nix as a &#8220;utility infielder&#8221; and deal Getz (though my sentimental preference is for players like Chris). Nix has some pop, which could be useful, though my understanding is that he&#8217;s an average/subpar fielder.</p>
<p>Assuming that all those moves pan out (suspend your disbelief here), the lineup card would look like this:</p>
<p>Crawford, LF<br />
Hudson, 2B<br />
Bobby Abreu RF<br />
TCQ/Konerko 1B<br />
Thome/Konerko, DH<br />
Beckham, 3B<br />
AJ, C<br />
Rios, CF<br />
Ramirez, SS</p>
<p>The glaring flaw for my super-magical plan is that you end up with a situation in which you have to juggle Quentin, Konerko, Thome and Abreu between RF, 1B and DH (when Thome and Konerko can&#8217;t play RF, while Q and Abreu don&#8217;t have much experience playing 1B). Though I suppose it should not be a given that all these guys will stay healthy all year, I think this situation likely means Konerko needs to be shipped unless they all manage to hold hands, sing kumbaya and accept that they will all see reduced playing time. </p>
<p>It may be slightly easier to move Pauly at this point, as he&#8217;s in the last year of the contract. But the Sox would have to eat a lot of the $12 million due to him, manage to get him to sign off on a trade and then try to get something decent in return. He probably still holds some value, but I don&#8217;t think the return would be exceptional.</p>
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		<title>By: theghostofmansoolee</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-887</link>
		<dc:creator>theghostofmansoolee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-887</guid>
		<description>Er, should say that Chris Young has been a huge disappointment so far, as he&#039;s only 26 and he may still get it together. My bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, should say that Chris Young has been a huge disappointment so far, as he&#8217;s only 26 and he may still get it together. My bad.</p>
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		<title>By: theghostofmansoolee</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-886</link>
		<dc:creator>theghostofmansoolee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-886</guid>
		<description>bigfun, 

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s all Kenny Williams&#039; fault that the Sox haven&#039;t been able to build up the roster through player development. Of the players who were on the roster for the majority of the season, only three players were products of the farm system: Buehrle, Getz and Beckham. And Buehrle is the only one of these players who was drafted before KW got his current job. The Sox&#039; minor league system has been pretty barren, for the most part (even this is a gross understatement, I think), which has forced the GM&#039;s hand somewhat. Even of the prospects who have been dealt in recent years by KW, I don&#039;t think anyone has really panned out (even Chris Young has been a huge disappointment).

As I admitted in the post above, I don&#039;t think the Sox would make that many moves. The management kept insisting that the 09 squad underperformed, which means they have reasonable confidence in the product they have. Most likely they&#039;ll sign a reliever here and a utility guy there, and then call it a day. 

You&#039;re right that Abreu probably gets a longer deal. But in the cases of FAs, I stuck strictly to the guideline of naming the price I&#039;d be willing to pay. I think the FA market might actually see less money than last year&#039;s class, as the economic situation remains weak. Corporates will probably still keep costs low, which will mean bad news for any professional league; MLB&#039;s no exception. 

As for Thome, I think 20+ HR is good value at the price. Not ideal, obviously, but there&#039;s really nobody that fits the typical left-handed power hitter profile out there. And it will cost you quite a bit to acquire said asset via a trade. Sometimes you just have to work off of what&#039;s out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bigfun, </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s all Kenny Williams&#8217; fault that the Sox haven&#8217;t been able to build up the roster through player development. Of the players who were on the roster for the majority of the season, only three players were products of the farm system: Buehrle, Getz and Beckham. And Buehrle is the only one of these players who was drafted before KW got his current job. The Sox&#8217; minor league system has been pretty barren, for the most part (even this is a gross understatement, I think), which has forced the GM&#8217;s hand somewhat. Even of the prospects who have been dealt in recent years by KW, I don&#8217;t think anyone has really panned out (even Chris Young has been a huge disappointment).</p>
<p>As I admitted in the post above, I don&#8217;t think the Sox would make that many moves. The management kept insisting that the 09 squad underperformed, which means they have reasonable confidence in the product they have. Most likely they&#8217;ll sign a reliever here and a utility guy there, and then call it a day. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that Abreu probably gets a longer deal. But in the cases of FAs, I stuck strictly to the guideline of naming the price I&#8217;d be willing to pay. I think the FA market might actually see less money than last year&#8217;s class, as the economic situation remains weak. Corporates will probably still keep costs low, which will mean bad news for any professional league; MLB&#8217;s no exception. </p>
<p>As for Thome, I think 20+ HR is good value at the price. Not ideal, obviously, but there&#8217;s really nobody that fits the typical left-handed power hitter profile out there. And it will cost you quite a bit to acquire said asset via a trade. Sometimes you just have to work off of what&#8217;s out there.</p>
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		<title>By: timmeh</title>
		<link>http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/10/26/fourth-anniversary-fourth-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-885</link>
		<dc:creator>timmeh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/?p=786#comment-885</guid>
		<description>I fully disagree with your comment that &quot;it doesn’t seem like Williams has ever embraced that as a good way to build a team. It’s still &#039;how do we make a big splash with a name player who is already a proven commodity?&#039;&quot;

Peavy and Rios were huge acquisitions because they were so out of the norm. Usually when Kenny doesn&#039;t make a marquee acquisition at the deadline. If you look at the past 3 or 4 offseason&#039;s the Sox have never signed a marquee free agent. The White Sox &quot;success&quot; as of late has been through good trades, scouting and financial management. 

If you look at the White Sox young core, it consists of:

Gavin Floyd - Acquired in the Freddy Garcia Trade
John Danks - Acquired in the Brandon McCarthy Trade
Jake Peavy - Acquired in the Clayton Richard Trade

Alexei Rameriez - Signed as an international Free Agent
Gordon Beckham - 2008 White Sox Draft
Chris Getz - Product of the White Sox Farm system.
Alex Rios - Claimed off Waivers because of the expiring contracts of Dye, Thome, and Count
TCQ - Acquired in the Chris Carter Trade.

Those are arguably the key components of the 2010 White Sox, and Peavy is the only big name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fully disagree with your comment that &#8220;it doesn’t seem like Williams has ever embraced that as a good way to build a team. It’s still &#8216;how do we make a big splash with a name player who is already a proven commodity?&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>Peavy and Rios were huge acquisitions because they were so out of the norm. Usually when Kenny doesn&#8217;t make a marquee acquisition at the deadline. If you look at the past 3 or 4 offseason&#8217;s the Sox have never signed a marquee free agent. The White Sox &#8220;success&#8221; as of late has been through good trades, scouting and financial management. </p>
<p>If you look at the White Sox young core, it consists of:</p>
<p>Gavin Floyd &#8211; Acquired in the Freddy Garcia Trade<br />
John Danks &#8211; Acquired in the Brandon McCarthy Trade<br />
Jake Peavy &#8211; Acquired in the Clayton Richard Trade</p>
<p>Alexei Rameriez &#8211; Signed as an international Free Agent<br />
Gordon Beckham &#8211; 2008 White Sox Draft<br />
Chris Getz &#8211; Product of the White Sox Farm system.<br />
Alex Rios &#8211; Claimed off Waivers because of the expiring contracts of Dye, Thome, and Count<br />
TCQ &#8211; Acquired in the Chris Carter Trade.</p>
<p>Those are arguably the key components of the 2010 White Sox, and Peavy is the only big name.</p>
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