posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:26 PM by Jim

The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

I'll take a more complete, what-does-it-all mean look at trading Javier Vazquez once the trade is finalized.  In the meantime, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Dave O'Brien thinks he has the Braves' four prospects nailed down -- Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, Jon Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez.

Here's what I've learned about each.

Tyler Flowers

O'Brien says Kenny Williams saw Tyler Flowers play in the Arizona Fall League and "practically drooled over him."

There's good reason for that -- Flowers led the entire league in hitting, going .387/.460/.973 with 12 homers in 75 at-bats.  Still, it doesn't do anything to discourage the sentiment that Williams is seeking to acquire a large chunk of the AFL.

Here's some video of Flowers (mistakenly named Cole is his first name, evidently) from minorleagueball.com.  It's anticlimactic, but gives you an idea of what he looks like:




Flowers tested positive for PEDs in May 2006, and drew a 50-game suspension.  When he returned, he spent a lot of time at first while recovering from a knee injury during the 2007 season.  In 2008, he returned to behind the plate and hit .288/.427/.494, with 17 homers, 98 walks and 102 strikeouts at High-A ball in the Carolina League.

John Sickels says he threw out 28 percent of basestealers
while committing 12 errors and allowing 11 passed balls, so his defense is in question.  Considering the Braves had far worse backup catchers than the Sox last year, I'm wondering if they don't think he can stick there.

Supposedly he delivers a mighty batting practice homer.  So he's like Tyler Reves but better.

Update:  Look at this quote from Flowers in the Trib's story:

"I was just talking to my parents," Flowers told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "They're a little upset about it, but it's probably good for me, considering there's a designated hitter [in the AL].

"That's another position I can possibly play. That's definitely a plus. And I know some guys in their organization."

Anybody else a little nervous that he's excited about the DH spot this soon?

Brent Lillibridge

Lillibridge made his debut with the Atlanta Braves last year and batted .200/.238/.338.  Good news: Eight of his 16 hits went for extra bases.  Bad news:  He walked three times in 85 plate appearances and struck out 23 times.

Strikeouts were a problem throughout his minor-league career, too, as he started struggling when he reached Double-A.  He has a great defensive reputation and runs well, but the Sox aren't the greatest when it comes to fixing holes in swings.  He'll join Jayson Nix and Chris Getz in the bloodbath for the second base job.

Jon Gilmore

No, not the former Bears tight end who my dad nicknamed "Floppy Dog."  When he ran, every part of his upper body moved way too much for the amount of ground he covered.

This one is a raw corner infield type, and here was his scouting showcase report before the 2007 draft.  It also comes with video, and you can see he has kind of a goofy-looking overhanded throwing motion.

He hasn't shown the power projected of him, hitting 23 doubles to four homers in rookie ball.  Then again, he just turned 20 in August.  It should be an interesting competition between he and Brent Morel in Kannapolis and Winston-Salem, considering they're opposites in profile.  Morel supposedly doesn't have much of a ceiling for power, but makes all the plays.

Santos Rodriguez

Rodriguez hasn't advanced past rookie ball yet, but as a 20-year-old, he struck out 45 in 29 innings, allowing 16 hits, 13 walks and zero homers.

Comments

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:59 AM by obamasox
Cole Tyler Flowers is the guy's full name.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:03 AM by Jim Margalus
Well that's what I get for looking at B-Ref's player page. Never again!

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:27 AM by Jim Margalus
And speaking of first names, I'm pretty sure we're going with Santos L. Halper as a stage name for the foreseeable future.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:34 AM by chisoxt
"That's another position (DH) I can possibly play. That's definitely a plus. And I know some guys in their organization."

Crap. Ya Jim, I don't like the sound of that at all.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:29 AM by soxfan1
I am delirious with happiness. Getting rid of Javy AND Boone in the same deal is a dream for me. I know we have to replace their innings but this is addition by subtraction as far as I'm concerned. We'll have to wait a few years to find out if any of these 4 Braves becomes a stud in the majors but in Kenny I trust.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:49 AM by knoxfire30
The DH thing is being taken way out of context, if your Flowers and your sitting in Atlanta completely blocked by McCann you have to be thrilled to be moved to the whitesox where in the next two or three years AJ, Thome, PK, will all be gone and you go from being blocked to possibly starting at any 1 of 3 different positions.

Sox have a lot of power options now with Fields, Viciedo, Allen, and Flowers hopefully filling out 3rd, 1st, DH, C. Not gonna be the prettiest defense with those guys involved but the offense should carry them anyways.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:01 AM by Fundman
My concern is the same as the Cheat's on Southside - it's that the Braves always win in these types of deals. Otherwise, Flowers looks like a good pick-up, especially in the Cell. I don't see the problem with stocking up on young infielders if you aren't sure which ones will stick. Throw a bunch of them at the wall.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:36 AM by Jim Margalus
I know you hated Javy, soxfan, but it'll be interesting to see whether you (and many, many others) start to miss him if we have a Fifth Starter Hell relapse. Only 18 other pitchers have thrown 600 innings and averaged 12 wins a season over the last three years, so that's a *lot* of innings to be picked up, even if Javy amassed those innings in frustrating fashion.

I remember last year you had concerns that you were buying season tickets for a worsening product. Right now, it kinda looks like the Sox are slashing $20 million and raising ticket prices to have the Arizona Fall League on the South Side, so if I were a ticketholder, I don't think I'd be as enthusiastic.

Obviously we'll have to play the waiting game, but I'm not seeing any real blue-chippers yet to be that thrilled.

And ... we can both agree that no tears will be shed over Boone Logan.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:47 AM by bobleeswagger
"I don't see the problem with stocking up on young infielders if you aren't sure which ones will stick. Throw a bunch of them at the wall."

Couldn't have said it better myself, Fundman. This is the strategy I've been suggesting for years for the Bears... Spend an entire draft only picking quarterbacks... one of them HAS to be good.

Anybody else get the feeling Dye is as good as gone for a starter?

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:04 AM by knoxfire30
You cant be a contending team with Vazquez in your starting rotation, you just cant.

I dont care if we have a clown car of 5th starters again this year, im not going to pay Vazquez 11.5 mil a year to be a slightly more reliable 5th starter who simply allows for ZERO chance of winning a meaningful game.

Im delighted he is gone, I am even happier we picked up a solid prospect or two in the process.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:28 AM by Jim Margalus
"You just can't."

I wasn't before, but with that mountain of evidence, color me completely convinced!

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:05 PM by Fundman
Between losing Masset and Boone Logan I'm not sure that you or the Cheat will have as many opportunities for humor and venting......careful what you wish for.

Jim I think the answer to the question concerning the fifth starter is, they don't know/care. We are not in full white flag mode now, but we are clearly in grey flag mode if you ask me. If he trades Dye, that's a ton of production gone between Vazquez (sorry soxfan) Dye, Cabrera, and starting, at a minimum, guys in five new positions..........

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:06 PM by Muzzle
Mr. Margalaus,how about when Flowers says in his quote that he's excited to play in the AL because there's the DH position that it's a good thing? It's just like knoxfire30 writes, Flowers in the Majors would only amount to him playing in the shadow of Brian McCann if he stayed in ATL. Flowers has a positive and enthusiastic outlook on going to the White Sox. Flowers is probably thinking could potentially see playing time at either position (DH or C) because he's good enough at either spot. Whether he is or not remains to be seen.

Brent Lillibridge has pretty good speed and pretty good defense. What you'll like most about the guy is that he's a smart baseball player. What he's best at won't translate directly to any statistic but don't let that diminish his value. He's a good ballplayer and he's more or less ready for the Major Leagues. Like Flowers, he was blocked in ATL by Yunel Escobar.

It looks to me like Kenny Williams is filling two spots (SS and backup C) on his roster with both of these guys. He's also dumping a dud of a pitcher and trimming payroll. I'm not claiming that the prospects from ATL are the next best thing, but it's not like the White Sox are parting with some stellar pieces themselves. Both teams fill their needs and ship off pieces they didn't want to keep. Sounds like a good trade to me so far.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:13 PM by Jim Margalus
Mr. Muzzle (and knox),

Don't take my Flowers/DH comment too seriously. It's more like I was hoping for more evidence that he would be a longterm solution behind the plate, and then he says, "Hey, I can DH!" Not exactly what I wanted to hear/read at the time is all I'm saying, but I'm not reading that much into it.

Lillibridge does fill some needs (backup SS), but I'm not encouraged by his strikeout rate, which could very well be exacerbated next season by moving to the tougher league. He's still young and he has some valuable tools, but there isn't a whole lot of evidence suggesting he can hit well enough aside that he looks the part. I'll hope for the best, but I can't see him replacing any of the massive '09 value currently lost.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:15 PM by winningugly
Didn't we contend last year with Javy in the rotation, knoxfire? Didn't we?

Unless the #3 hole gets filled this trade, though interesting, has me pining for Jon Garland back in the rotation.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:01 PM by bigsether
How realistic would it be to acquire any of the following players with the money we have trimmed off payroll? I'm going to assume Dye gets dealt before the new year.

1. Derek Lowe
2. Pat Burrell - not offered arbitration
3. Jon Garland

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:04 PM by knoxfire30
Winningugly- We won last year despite Vazquez I mean come freaking on a losing record on a 1st place team, a 4.67 era, an implosion in September and October.

Javy was a waste of 11.5, we can spend that money better.

I also wouldnt say lucking into a division title with 89 wins and being eliminated rather easily by the Rays is exactly contending, but maybe that is just semantics.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:46 PM by Fundman
This from Jayson Stark's Rumblings column of 11-20

• Braves catcher Tyler Flowers (.394 AVG, .463 OBP, 1.014 SLG, 12 HRs in 71 ABs): "Big, strong, raw-boned guy. Very powerful offensive catcher. Defensively, needs polish. But better agility than you'd think he'd have. I'm not sure what they're going to do with him, with [Brian] McCann there. But he's a player."

Not horrible.............

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 3:55 PM by Jim Margalus
"I also wouldnt say lucking into a division title with 89 wins and being eliminated rather easily by the Rays is exactly contending, but maybe that is just semantics."

I'm not sure what "lucking into" the playoffs and a first-round elimination has anything to do with anything. If Carlos Quentin didn't break his wrist, it's probably a different story. And Vazquez is the goat?

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 4:11 PM by UribeAuction
It honestly wouldn't shock me if Lillibridge didn't make the team out of spring training in 2009. I think he will based on defense and speed alone, but my god...his bat just looks atrocious.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:03 PM by Dr. Lingerie
"And speaking of first names, I'm pretty sure we're going with Santos L. Halper as a stage name for the foreseeable future."

Lillibridge to Nowhere?

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:23 PM by knoxfire30
Vazquez single handedly lost 3 or 4 games in september and then game 1 of the playoffs. If he wasnt a goat who the heck could ever be. 11.5 mil a year for a guy being brutally outpitched by everyone else on the staff including a kid in Richard who started the year in double A and showed twice the guts Vazquez ever has or will. IM THRILLED HE IS GONE, he is a born loser. Losers can sit back and say he shouldnt have pitched on short rest, but MB, Floyd and Danks didnt have any problem doing it and sometimes you have to man up and get it done. Javy has never been able to do that, not even close. Good Bye JAVY! Dont let the door hit you on the way out!

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:51 PM by Andrew
Javy would make the greatest long reliever/mop-up specialist in the history of the world. Why has no GM realized this?

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:41 PM by Conor
"Lillibridge to Nowhere?"

Flowers For Algernon.

# re: The possible returns for Javier Vazquez

Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:54 PM by bigsether
I love knoxfire's last comment, he actually kind of makes me happy about Javy's departure.

How many more days until pitchers and catchers report?