Friday, November 02, 2007 - Posts

Additional perspective on Torii Hunter (updated)

First things first, to follow up on our Torii Hunter discussion, I asked Twins blogger and friend of the site Stick and Ball Guy for his opinion of Hunter's worth.  He gave me a helluva response:

I've long advocated that the Twins not pursue Hunter in free agency, even before it became apparent that he'd probably command a 5 or 6 year deal at about $15 million per.  Two years ago, this was a no-brainer -- you let Hunter walk.  Over the last season and a half, though, it's a little easier to be lulled into the idea of breaking the bank for Hunter.  I wouldn't do it.

Hunter's positives are apparent.  He has been an excellent defender and rightfully deserved most of the Gold Gloves he's gotten.  He is fearless, he's got a good arm, and he catches balls that he gets to.  He's made a ton of highlight reel catches.  At the plate, he's got good power and his numbers are pretty good (but not great as I will show below) for a center fielder.  He'll almost certainly deliver 25+ home runs for several years, providing he stays healthy.  He's not too patient at the plate, but you have to live with that.  When Hunter isn't aggressive at the plate, he suffers.  He's hacktastic.  That's who he is, and you can't change him, nor do you want to.  He had a great start in 2007 and he said a bunch of crap (Torii talks out of his behind a lot) about being more patient and more selective.  But, he had a near career low in pitches per plate appearance and walked just 40 times, and just 30 unintentionally, in 650 plate appearances.  He was swinging at everything.   That's what he does best.

While he's been a great defender in the past, I'm not so sure that's the case any more.  According to the Hardball Times, his Zone Rating is in the lower half of AL center fielders -- and the Metrodome is not spacious like, say, Comerica Park.  In fact, I've seen Hunter repeatedly beaten on balls in Detroit.  Granderson is covering a lot more ground than Hunter does.  Furthermore, I'm not all that impressed with Hunter's decision making ability.  In 2006, he was playing through a stress fracture in his foot and it's my contention that he was the worst center fielder in the American League defensively.  The problem wasn't just that he couldn't get to balls, it was that he couldn't admit that he couldn't get to balls.  As a result, he took a lot of incredibly bad angles on balls that resulted in singles turning into extra base hits.  If you recall, he made a ridiculous attempt in game 2 in the ALDS on a ball that should have been a single and he misplayed it into an inside-the-park home run.  That play was shocking to the baseball world in general, but not to those paying attention closely.  Torii was simply not adjusting to his diminished capacity.

Like I said above, Hunter is a hacker.  I really don't think he can approach hitting any other way.  When he's tried to be patient, he's foundered.  When he's just hacked, he's hit a lot better.  As he gets older, I don't see him compensating for his inevitable decline in quickness at the plate.  Barry Bonds (all possible "enhancements" aside) didn't succeed by hacking, he's got the best eye in baseball.  By contrast, noted hacker Sammy Sosa aged remarkably quickly (again, all possible "enhancements" aside).  Torii is more Sammy than Barry, although he's not as good as either.  Not by a long stretch.  In fact, I mentioned that he was pretty good for an up-the-middle defender, but after 2002, when he had the 2nd best VORP in the AL for centerfielders, he's been 11th, 6th, 5th, 6th, and 5th in the same group.  That hardly screams superstar.  And if his defense really is middle of the pack now, well...

Plus, there is his mouth.  Widely regarded to be one of the good guys, he's nevertheless taken his shots at teammates.  In 2005, he called out both Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau in the paper, questioning his toughness.  In September 2005, while on the DL he visited the clubhouse and took a swing at Morneau.  Again this year, he questioned Mauer's toughness in the newspaper.  He gets kid gloves treatment in the Minneapolis press, but I think if he gets to a big market, especially, say, New York, he's got the potential to turn into Bobby-Bonilla-with-the-Mets.  Well, maybe not that bad, but I'm pretty sure that there are more than a few quality players in the Twins clubhouse that might have a going away party for Torii -- and not invite him.  And future collisions at the plate between Hunter and Mr. Mauer might result in a shin guard to the groin.

I certainly recognize that Hunter's a very good player, and I'm being tough.  But, somebody's about to pay him $90 million.  I'd never do it and the Twins will be idiots to hand him that kind of money, given the other talent on this club that is younger and better and needs to get paid.  On a big club with a lot of money, he'll be a nice piece for probably a couple of years.  But, I don't think he'll age well and by the end of the contract, he could be an albatross.

Well, that just about settles that.

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The Milwaukee Brewers will be in contact with Curt Schilling, which has a couple implications for the White Sox.

The first -- that if Doug Melvin can lure Schilling to Wisconsin somehow, there goes a trade possibility centering on Jon Garland for Bill Hall.  Schilling posted better numbers than Garland last year, albeit in 57 fewer innings, so it's just about a draw projecting to 2008.  Still, Garland will cost talent to acquire him, plus a large chunk of change to pay him.  Schilling only costs money.

On the other hand, if Schilling decides to go elsewhere, this may tip Melvin's hand a little.  Here's my train of thought:
  1. Schilling's big strikeout days are behind him.
  2. Garland also relies on his defense, although more so.
  3. Milwaukee has one of the worst defenses in the league.
  4. Even so, Melvin is still pursuing Schilling.
  5. Then maybe he'd go for Garland.
  6. Garland's only around for a year, though.
  7. Then again, Schilling's only negotiating one-year deals.
  8. Hey now...
Schilling made $13 million in 2007, and he'll probably see that number come down a bit.  Garland will make $12 million, although Melvin would be sending some salary back to Chicago in any trade.  This should be a situation worth monitoring.

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A few links:

*Carl Skanberg has posted a new Smells Like Mascot episode.  Brian Anderson's jawline has to be a cartoonist's dream.

*Scott Merkin gives an update on Juan Uribe's option situation.  If you're a fan of Kannapolis' prospects last year, I'd suggest you skip the first of the minor sections.

*The Cheat
made me aware of an interesting SoxTalk thread on Sox rookie ball teams by a guy who may or may not work for the organization.  If he does work for the Sox, he might not be there much longer.

*A video at MiLB.com
gives a surface look at the Sox prospects in the Arizona Fall League.  There's not much to hear, but it gives a quick look at Jack Egbert, Fernando Hernandez and Chris Getz, for whom I have no video footage... yet.

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And speaking of the AFL, it's time for another quick Friday winter ball update:

Arizona Fall League
  • Chris Getz: 9-for-34, 1 2B, 2 RBI, 6 BB, 4 K, 2/3 SB
  • Ryan Sweeney:  10-for-47, 0 XBH, 4 RBI, 8 BB, 15 K, 2/3 SB
  • Donny Lucy: 3-for-24, 0 XBH, 2 RBI, 2 BB, 9 K, 1/1 SB
  • Jack Egbert:  10.1 IP, 10 H, 5 ER, 7 BB, 8 K
  • Adam Russell:  12 IP, 9 H, 2 ER, 6 BB, 10 K
  • Dewon Day:  9 IP, 8 H, 2 ER, 4 BB, 10 K
  • Fernando Hernandez Jr.: 8.2 IP, 4 H, 0 ER, 3 BB, 8 K
Mexican League
  • Jason Bourgeois: .306/.379/.376 (85 AB), 4 2B, 1 3B, 9 BB, 11 K, 9/10 SB
  • Heath Phillips:  3.13 ERA, 23.2 IP, 24 H, 9 BB, 23 K
Dominican League
  • Oneli Perez: 4.1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 2 K
Venezuelan League
  • Wiki Gonzalez: 10-for-40, 4 2B, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 3 BB, 4 K
  • Carlos Vasquez: 4 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 3 BB, 1 K
Hawaiian League
  • Kanekoa Texeira: 5 IP, 5 H, 6 ER, 3 BB, 1 K
A couple developments worth noting:

No. 1:  It's interesting to note the opposite directions Sox hitters and pitchers are taking in the AFL.  Compare their numbers to last week's stats, and here's what we have:
  • Getz, Sweeney and Lucy:  4-for-26, 0 XBH, 5 BB, 8 K
  • Egbert, Russell, Day and Hernandez:  13 IP, 12 H, 4 ER, 0 BB, 13 K
No. 2:  Gonzalez and Bourgeois no longer belong on this list, technically, as they're among 33 White Sox minor-league free agents.  I'll probably still keep tabs on Bourgeois.  Meanwhile, the Sox roster purged perpetual prospects Corwin Malone and Casey Rogowski, as well as the other Josh Fields.

Only one team has more minor-league free agents -- the Pittsburgh Pirates.  The Baltimore Orioles and Philadelphia Phillies also have 33, and the former two are among the worst in developing talent.

Hunter in the sights of Williams' love gun

The briefing of The Bill James Handbook 2008 will be put on hold until this weekend, since none of the bookstores around here carry it, or even plan on carrying it.  That means I'll have to drive out to Cooperstown on Saturday, which is where I found it last year.  So sorry for that.

That said, I'll still do my damndest to make this a Coco Crisp-free post.

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A different outfielder took the forefront today -- Torii Hunter, who will meet with Kenny Williams next week.

Here's what Joe Cowley says:

Hunter has said he loves playing at U.S. Cellular Field, where he has hit nine home runs since 2004 and made his share of highlight-reel catches at the center-field wall, and would seem like a perfect fit with the Sox.

[...]

Hunter would seem to make sense at $15 million a year if the sides can work out the number of years. He already reportedly turned down a three-year, $45 million offer from the Twins because he wanted a five-year deal.

The number of years might not be the only issue, according to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune's Joe Christensen:

For those who think Hunter was foolish to turn down 3/45, I think you are grossly underestimating today’s market. A National League scout told me yesterday that 5/75 million was a low estimate for Hunter, and that he expects him to get $90 million, probably from the Yankees. Asked who he’d rather have Hunter or Andruw Jones, the scout said Hunter, adding that it isn’t even close.

That last sentenced surprised me a little bit, but then again, Hunter still looks pretty lithe out there in center.  Jones, on the other hand, has gotten pretty... voluptuous, to put it one way.  Barring any drastic change in training routines, Hunter seems a better bet to hold down his current position five years from now.

Still, $90 million is a lot for the decline years of a guy who isn't known to put teams on his back.  Making matters even scarier is his list of his 10 most comparable players:
  1. Carl Everett -- Done at 35
  2. Preston Wilson -- Hit a wall at 31, barely a major-leaguer at 32
  3. Phil Nevin -- Retired at 35
  4. Juan Encarnacion -- Career jeopardized at 31 due to freak foul ball accident.
  5. Jose Guillen -- Oft-injured, but resurgent at 31.
  6. Jacque Jones -- 87 OPS+ last year at 32.
  7. Geoff Jenkins -- Playing time reduced at age 32, but still productive
  8. Bobby Higginson -- Power vanished at 32.
  9. Larry Hisle -- Had career year at 31 in 1979, but tore rotator cuff in '80
  10. Leon Wagner -- Retired at 35
Baseball-Reference.com says his career path most similarly resembles Jermaine Dye's.  There's no point in letting that scare us, since the Sox are already signed up for two years and $23 million more of that action, with one of those years protected by a no-trade clause.

The story with that list is pretty easy -- these guys don't have favorable walk/strikeout rates, so when the physical tools erode, they don't have the strike zone knowledge to keep pitchers honest.  The banged-up Dye we saw in the first half this year could easily be the full-speed Dye two years from now, and that was hard to watch.

Hunter has managed good health, aside from the ankle injury he suffered in 2005, and his wheels are still there.  But five years is a hell of a gamble for the type of player who historically hasn't had the skill set to compensate for aging.

If I had to go after a veteran center fielder (I still don't think it's smart for this team), I'd rather go after Mike Cameron, who can still cover center at age 34 and will require a shorter, cheaper contract -- especially since he'll miss 25 games at the start of the 2008 season for testing positive for stimulants.  Perhaps he won't need them if he stops showing up to games drunk.

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More news:

*In that Cowley article, he states the Sox are likely to pick up Juan Uribe's option and try to lure David Eckstein to Chicago.  That's pretty much the sum of all fears right there.

*The Padres declined the $3.25 million option on Rob Mackowiak.  He's coming off a double sports hernia operation.

*Joey Cora is in the hunt for Pittsburgh's managerial opening -- and one of his competitors is Joel Skinner, who may have cost the Cleveland Indians a trip to the World Series with an ill-advised stop sign at third base.  Cora looks pretty good by comparison.